(Apr 11, 2021 08:56 PM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ] (Apr 11, 2021 08:42 PM)C C Wrote: [ -> ] (Apr 11, 2021 08:21 PM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ]Oops, I’m on my phone and deleted my reply as I want to use my laptop later instead.
I have to turn my phone sideways to post on this site from my phone. -_-
I have a tablet that's just wide enough to make SV modestly intelligible in the vertical orientation. But it's a work-related tablet, and I've never tried to post with it. (Pretty sure some of its installations include spyware reporting back about any mysterious deviations from protocol on my part. Nah, that's probably just paranoia fed to me by a friend who works for a home health care service. She's always tentatively looking at hers like it's God.)
haha Yea, I'm not sure if your employer would be able to 'spy' on your online activity such as visiting this forum, if you're accessing this forum through your home internet provider. Maybe best to be a little paranoid, though. 
They do have software that can remotely disable the tablet if it gets stolen. Fortunately that part of it doesn't go as haywire as often as it once did with the notebooks (small laptops) used prior to the tablets. I had a devil of a time figuring out how to get around that when it accidentally triggered, so it would hardly have been foolproof for a thief, either.
Quote:I don't mind using my phone for read only when lurking here, but posting lengthy responses is more challenging. Also, when I'm in the middle of posting a response, and leave the site, when I return, the text box is empty. *sob* It's advantageous to be on my laptop so I can open other windows while on this site.
Yah, I hate the possibility of a glitch or hiccup removing a lengthy text so bad, that even on a desktop, I usually write/store replies or posts in a notes app before pasting them in the boxes. The app automatically preserves anything without having to manually save, often even if the power suddenly goes off. Which I don't expect the "Save as Draft" feature of the forum to do. (Ought to actually try it sometime to find out, though. Sheesh, what a cave-woman I am in certain trivial areas.)
(Apr 11, 2021 08:56 PM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ]In watching the video, I suppose an argument could be made that Floyd was resisting arrest as soon as the two cops approached his car and tried to cuff him, before Chauvin arrived on the scene. I don't see that though, from a lay person's perspective. He was keeping his hands on the steering wheel, but acted confused and distressed.
Then you are literally blind and/or deaf, as the officer has to repeatedly order Floyd to show his hands and keep them on the wheel. Try watching the body cam footage with the sound on this time.
Quote:But, he was difficult to control when they were trying to get him in the police car. And that was obvious, from the videos. That's when I felt he was resisting arrest, but I'm not a police officer. (Come to learn later though, that he could have been experiencing adverse physical effects from recently ingested drugs, at that point.)
So you skipped right over the part where he has to be dragged out of the car, for not obeying repeated orders to step out, and it takes two officers to get him in cuffs.
Try watching the video, with sound, several more times, as it seems it will take you quite a few viewings to catch all the obvious stuff you keep missing.
Yes, it's called excited delirium. Police deal with it all the time in people on drugs.
Quote:Anyway, fast forwarding to when Floyd was on the ground - Chauvin's actions at that point, is what the trial is focused on. The Chief of Police took the stand, and stated plainly that Chauvin used excessive force, and violated policy. He went on to state that Chauvin didn't de-escalate the situation. Other expert witnesses stated pretty much the same. Even on the defense's cross examination, I didn't come away feeling that Chauvin's actions were justified.
Yes, we get that you did a lot of fast fowarding.
The police chief's testimony is contradicted by MPD training material showing that exact same restraint. Chauvin did deescalate, as other officers testified he would have been justified in using a taser. Much like how much you repeatedly miss in the video, I'm betting you're missing just as much in cross-examinations.
Just more of your ignorance.
Well, I guess this trial is just one giant misunderstanding, eh?
From the article above:
Arradondo said in his statement at the time, that both Chauvin and Thao took training on the dangers of positional asphyxiation in 2014. The training, which covered how to get an arrestee from a prone position into a recovery or seated position, was required after a 2013 settlement with the family of David Cornelius Smith, a handcuffed Black man who died in 2010 after police pinned him face down.
He said the department also changed its policy in June 2014 to explicitly require moving an arrestee from a prone position to a recovery position when the highest degree of restraint is used, and to require continuous monitoring of the person’s condition.
Chauvin didn't follow procedure, and the trial is not about Floyd's behavior up to that point, it's if Chauvin's use of excessive force while ignoring protocol with the use of that force, killed a man.
Leigha Wrote:when Floyd was first approached and cuffed, and to me, he didn\u2019t look to be resisting arrest
My suspicion is that an experienced police officer can elicit 'resistance' whenever they wish - hence my earlier suggestion that Floyd was in for (at least) a spell of unconsciousness whatever he did.
Syne points out
Quote: One [the knee on the neck technique ???] that was done 237 times over the previous five years, with 44 going unconscious, by the Minneapolis police alone. Only ignorance can pretend that this was a unique situation.
^^Syne from:
https://www.scivillage.com/thread-7059-p...l#pid43025
'I can't breathe' would indicate the technique was working but more time (and more pressure?) would be appropriate.
Anecdotally(!) the suspect must be deeply unconscious otherwise they wake up too soon and you are no further forward.
'The Internet' suggests brain damage occurs after 3 to 6 minutes without oxygen so there's a fine line between inducing deep unconsciousness and causing serious and irreversible brain damage - brain damage may be regarded as an acceptable or possibly intended consequence of the technique used. Chauvin kept Floyd 'out' for 4 minutes and rising so he may well not have recovered even without other medical conditions (including drugs in his system).
If, as Syne points out, asphyxiation is an approved and frequently used technique of restraint it seems wrong to leave Chauvin as the fall guy - he may have been a little over zealous and lost track of time - but that (may) be all.
The guy who initially remembered that Floyd and Chauvin knew each other and didn't get on has since remembered that he was mistaken. So.. I'm glad I'm not a juror.
To your point confused, I don’t think Chauvin “kept Floyd out”; it’s hard to say if Chauvin was aware of Floyd’s condition. But that is part of the problem, too. Sounds like when an officer uses excessive force, he needs to be keenly aware of a suspect’s condition and if care should be rendered.
(Apr 11, 2021 10:10 PM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ]Well, I guess this trial is just one giant misunderstanding, eh?
From the article above:
Arradondo said in his statement at the time, that both Chauvin and Thao took training on the dangers of positional asphyxiation in 2014. The training, which covered how to get an arrestee from a prone position into a recovery or seated position, was required after a 2013 settlement with the family of David Cornelius Smith, a handcuffed Black man who died in 2010 after police pinned him face down.
He said the department also changed its policy in June 2014 to explicitly require moving an arrestee from a prone position to a recovery position when the highest degree of restraint is used, and to require continuous monitoring of the person’s condition.
Chauvin didn't follow procedure, and the trial is not about Floyd's behavior up to that point, it's if Chauvin's use of excessive force while ignoring protocol with the use of that force, killed a man.
As the MPD medical coordinator testified, that's in an ideal situation, without considerations of officer safety. The prosecution didn't ask the chief about other considerations on the scene.
(Apr 11, 2021 10:41 PM)confused2 Wrote: [ -> ]If, as Syne points out, asphyxiation is an approved and frequently used technique of restraint it seems wrong to leave Chauvin as the fall guy - he may have been a little over zealous and lost track of time - but that (may) be all.
That is a restraint, not a choke hold or designed to asphyxiate. There's likely other causes contributing to those 44 going unconscious.
Quote:The guy who initially remembered that Floyd and Chauvin knew each other and didn't get on has since remembered that he was mistaken. So.. I'm glad I'm not a juror.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floy...ges-story/
(Apr 11, 2021 10:50 PM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ]To your point confused, I don’t think Chauvin “kept Floyd out”; it’s hard to say if Chauvin was aware of Floyd’s condition. But that is part of the problem, too. Sounds like when an officer uses excessive force, he needs to be keenly aware of a suspect’s condition and if care should be rendered.
No one can tell excessive force from a video alone, without blows being thrown. The judge even had to warn the prosecution that they were eliciting too much opinion in their testimony.
I read an interesting take (public opinion) - what Chauvin did was ''lawful'' when Floyd was alive, but it became unlawful when Floyd lost consciousness.
Curious if the defense has any intention of asking Chauvin to take the stand. Every defendant has the final say in if he/she wants to testify in their own trial. We'll see...
They received a statement from Ben Crump, the civil attorney, who succeeded in obtaining a historical settlement of 27 million for George Floyd’s family. He said, that as the defense attempts to construct a narrative that George Floyd’s cause of death was due to Fentanyl being in his system, we want to remind the world, who witnessed his death on video that George was walking, talking, laughing, and breathing just fine before Derek Chauvin held his knee to his neck.
But…as Syne pointed out earlier, that wasn’t the case.
He was saying that he was going to die and couldn’t breath even before Chauvin put him on the ground. He was also complaining that his stomach hurt. Troubling breathing and intense stomach pain are symptoms listed for an overdose.
"Two months before his death, Ross said she took Floyd to hospital when he overdosed after taking a new pill that appeared to be more powerful than the rest. She said he complained of severe stomach pain and she noticed a white substance around his mouth.
In its cross-examination, the defense returned to that part of Ross’s testimony, apparently because at the time of his arrest Floyd repeatedly complained that his stomach hurt and had white foam around his mouth."
Keep your hands in sight and get out of the car.
While wearing a seat belt.
And resisting arrest.
Works every time.