Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

(Jan 7, 2021 10:17 PM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ]I don't discount all of what you're saying ^^ But...unfortunately, the Confederate flag has become a symbol well known in white supremacist groups. I'm not sharing anything new. This doesn't mean that all people who wave the Confederate flag are white supremacists, but they should be careful, because that is the symbol it (now) represents. When the KKK was reformed, the Confederate flag became its symbol. Of course the roots of the Confederate flag don't stem from racism, but this has become a symbol of sorts to represent hatred of blacks. The plurality of Americans believe the Confederate flag to be offensively racist. The vast majority of southern states believe this to be true, with the exception of Louisiana, Alabama and Arkansas. (that doesn't mean the flag isn't though) Elderly Americans, black or white, see the flag as more favorably, a symbol of heritage and pride. It is a safe conclusion (imo) to assume that if you are parading around proudly waving the Confederate flag as a white person, don't be surprised if people assume you're a racist.

Seeing Trump supporters waving the Confederate flag around at the ''protests'' yesterday was disturbing, because I know many non-racist Republicans who voted for Trump and were appalled at what they saw on the news.

Well, as CC pointed out, the US flag is now considered a symbol of hate for many. Does that mean no one should fly it now? People will always claim new things represent hate, like the "OK" hand gesture. It's just as irrational to let that dictate your behavior as it was to avoid baths because the Romans did it. And kowtowing to that only encourages people to control you by finding more things to be outraged over. The majority, or plurality, doesn't dictate your likes, dislikes, or beliefs unless you're a sheep. And what if people do think something you like is racist? And? That's their problem. Should you let them bully you?

Most people who voted for Trump know the Confederate flag isn't solely a racist symbol. And you not knowing that tells me you don't really know how most Trump supporters think. That you even have to specify "non-racist Republican", when the vast majority are not, tells me that you harbor a lot of bigoted preconceptions about people you obviously have no personal knowledge about.

You clearly didn’t read anything that I’ve posted above. You would rather believe that the majority of Americans who view the Confederate flag as offensive, to varying degrees, are bigots? <_<

You accuse me of broad-brushing people who wave the Confederate flag with pride, but you are broad-brushing all Americans who believe it to be offensive, as bigots. But, the real stat is that most Americans do believe that the Confederate flag symbolizes racism, to varying degrees. Unless you're elderly, and you have a fondness for it due to heritage, pride, etc.

One could say that the media plays a part in anyone taking a side, or having an opinion on this or that...but, history doesn't lie. Perhaps you're miffed that some of your fellow Trump supporters made your side look bad...you should be angry with their display.

(Jan 7, 2021 11:16 PM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ]You clearly didn’t read anything that I’ve posted above. You would rather believe that the majority of Americans who view the Confederate flag as offensive, to varying degrees, are bigots? <_<

You accuse me of broad-brushing people who wave the Confederate flag with pride, but you are broad-brushing all Americans who believe it to be offensive, as bigots. But, that's a real stat.

No, you're projecting you not reading what I've already written.

(Jan 7, 2021 10:03 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]And I'm not even saying their feelings are wrong. They have a right to dislike anything at all. I'm saying that claiming everyone who flies a Confederate flag is racist, as you did, is itself bigoted.

To be very clear for you, I have not once said that everyone who hates the Confederate flag is bigoted.

You can feel that the Confederate flag is a symbol of hate. That's your prerogative. There's a difference between thinking a flag is a symbol of hate and saying that everyone who flies it is a racist. The former is a personal belief and the latter is using that belief to justify bigotry. It's the same as a person who thinks a BLM flag is inherently racist and presuming that everyone who flies one literally hates white people. A person can think that BLM is inherently racist but also realize that many who promote it either don't know that or don't feel that way. They simply believe it means something else, just like the southerners who think the battle flag is regional pride and heritage.

IOW, you're free to think whatever you like about the Confederate flag, or anything else. I never criticize freedom of thought. You're not a bigot for simply believing that. You are a bigot when you use that belief to presume a vast swath of people you don't even know personally are racist, or anything else evil.


If you can't understand that simple distinction...well, rue the state of public education, I guess.

I believe that it’s a symbol of hate/racism and so if I see someone proudly touting a symbol of hate, I’ll assume they are in favor of what that symbol represents. The Confederate flag has a deep, deep history which didn’t start out as a symbol of white supremacy, sure... but it has that connotation now.

Having a hard time thinking the FBI didn't know the protesters would storm the building. They knew, let it happen, set up a bunch of idiots for arrest and intel, thus getting rid of them before coronation. Set up Trump too, seems he took the bait and he is history. Did FBI pull a fast one on Trump's unruly mob?

(Jan 7, 2021 11:58 PM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ]I believe that it’s a symbol of hate/racism and so if I see someone proudly touting a symbol of hate, I’ll assume they are in favor of what that symbol represents. The Confederate flag has a deep, deep history which didn’t start out as a symbol of white supremacy, sure... but it has that connotation now.

Then you are admitting to being a bigot. Simple as that.


If you take a superficial thing, not universally seen as evil (like the Nazi swastika is), and presume anyone associated with it is evil, you're a bigot. It's like presuming anyone wearing a pentagram is a satanist, even though wiccans and just people who think they're cool wear them too. You know who else presumes people are bad, evil, or inferior based on a superficial thing? Racists, with skin color.

Lol Not at all. You’re really just defending Trump supporters because you are one. Which is fine but it seems why you’re taking offense. You have used scathing terms to describe those on the left - do you know them all personally? Or do you assume based on the organizations and causes they support? Your holier than thou routine is odd considering I don’t name call but you do on a regular basis. If this were Biden’s camp carrying signs and symbols that you dislike, storming the Capitol ...you would probably be calling them out but Trump supporters do it, and you’re vehemently defending their display? O. K.

You’re attaching the labels of evil, bad and inferior. I don’t think this of people who are proud of the Confederate flag. I simply assume that they have racist tendencies against blacks. The majority of Americans find the Confederate flag offensive, but I guess you think we are all mistaken.

(Jan 7, 2021 08:27 PM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jan 7, 2021 07:04 PM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jan 7, 2021 05:15 PM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ][...] I live in the south, and people who wave the Confederate flag from their truck, or companies who have it posted in their entrance ways, are usually racist. This flag doesn't represent the United States of America. We have one flag that ''unites'' us, and to me and others, it's divisive to fly a flag that doesn't promote unity.

More abuses have transpired for circa two and a half centuries under the American flag than the very short-lived Confederacy. Some militant black and Marxist cliques are actually consistent enough in their ideology to recognize such and target it as the deeper, offensive symbol. That's why I feel the Confederate flag should have continued to be tolerated to some extent, serving as a whipping boy for the American flag. Now there's only the latter for Leftangelicals to concentrate on.{*}

Sept 20, 2001: "Citing preliminary information, Miami-Dade Fire Department spokesman Louie Fernandez said firefighters working at an Opa-locka fire station on Saturday allegedly refused to ride on a fire truck that was flying the American flag. Fernandez said the men allegedly called the flag offensive and said it represented oppression."

US flags called 'liability,' ordered removed from New York fire trucks: "The flag flap followed a recent Rhode Island controversy, in which local firefighters were called "terrorists" for deciding to fly Old Glory on the back of their trucks. In June, firefighters in California were directed to remove a pro-police version of the American flag flying from their vehicles."

- - - footnote - - -

{*} The unhinged of the far-right still do their best to distract attention with their alternative icons, but there's no guarantee that will be sufficient in the long-term future. As the micro-managing SocJus collectivism (that's been handed the keys to the kingdom now via this latest escapade) increasingly coerces citizens to conform to proper speech and behavior. Yesterday's foolish antics have ensured that Leftarians will bask in the mythical appearance of being the "good guys" for at least a generation to come. (There aren't any good guys, just keeping the horrors of dystopian ideologies at bay.)

I suppose there is an argument that suggests the American flag has become a weapon (over the past few years) by the radical left. But, it's still a flag that is widely accepted (of course there are outliers) by the general public, to represent the US.

That said, there are outliers who feel that the Confederate flag represents triumph over adversity, but if you read the article above, that would be rewriting a new narrative about it. The fact that yesterday was the first day in the history of the US that a Confederate flag was brought in to the Capitol, tells me that most Americans find it offensive, and a throw back to a darker time in American history.

Popularity doesn't reflect that a view is grounded in fact, reason, or objectivity, though (ergo the fallacy of argumentum ad populum). Such is often the result of successful propaganda, advertising, or institutions and authorities simply issuing a "just so" story that _X_ is a proper or improper stance for the citizenry to have.

The reality here is that more social abuses have occurred under the vastly longer history of the US than the brief tenure of the Confederacy (the former also had a long arm with respect to international interference, not just domestic oppression).

Consistency is the backbone of reasoning, and there's little indulgence in that when the Confederate flag is regarded as a symbol of injustice for _X_ reasons while the US flag goes scot-free (apart from burning it at BLM protests, etc) despite a greater amount of instances and hypocrisy in the social abuse category.

What's transpiring in this part of the news landscape is not based on impartial rational processes but loyalties/allegiances, personal or group preferences, and competition between rival political factions and thought orientations.

And in the bias and passion-compromised spirit of the latter, I agree that the stars and stripes should be exalted over the stars and bars. But the "evil" heritage flag should not be removed from public circulation because the disingenuous, still operational flag does need it as a whipping-boy for receiving the punishment and disdain it cannot receive without permanently crippling the self-esteem and functionality of the nation.

Even IngSoc needed its fictional(?) Emmanuel Goldstein.

Valid points, CC. In the end though, symbols mean something. They're not to be dismissed. I'm sure someone out there would be willing to defend the swastika, but this doesn't mean we toss out the idea that it evolved into a symbol of hatred for Jews. That symbol however, originated as a religious emblem for Hindus, and Buddhists. But, if we're honest, few today in the West, view that symbol as such. Hitler used it as a centerpiece to promote hate, and that is often how it's viewed, today.

At the end of the day, this all begs the question should we allow symbols and flags to give rise to ideologies?

(Jan 8, 2021 02:20 PM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ]Lol Not at all. You’re really just defending Trump supporters because you are one. Which is fine but it seems why you’re taking offense. You have used scathing terms to describe those on the left - do you know them all personally? Or do you assume based on the organizations and causes they support?

Jeez, for someone who erroneously complained about people not reading her posts, you sure seem incapable of reciprocating.

(Jan 7, 2021 11:38 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]It's the same as a person who thinks a BLM flag is inherently racist and presuming that everyone who flies one literally hates white people. A person can think that BLM is inherently racist but also realize that many who promote it either don't know that or don't feel that way. They simply believe it means something else, just like the southerners who think the battle flag is regional pride and heritage.

I am not a BLM supporter, but my reasoning holds for them too...because I'm not a hypocrite.

There's a difference between "the left", which is a blanket term for all those left of center regardless of how far left, and "leftist". I specify "leftist", as those on the far-left with expressly Marxist views, as opposed to the run-of-the-mill Democrats who are just useful idiots. Many Democrat voters don't know that leftist policies are Marxist and lead to worse outcomes for the very people they claim to help. IOW, they are not morally culpable because they are ignorant, with media and education designed to keep them that way.

Leftists identify themselves by what they say, not a superficial feature like the flag they fly, organization or cause they support. Now if you were saying that people who say objectively racist shit are racists, I'd wholeheartedly agree. I'd even agree if you were talking about swastikas, as I've heard of no one who thinks that means anything but white supremacy. But you're demonizing people you don't know because of some superficial thing you've attached a certain meaning to, even though you admit many people don't attach that same meaning.

Again, racists also attach a certain negative meaning to skin color, even though many don't. Can't you see that you're doing exactly what you hate? Southerners were born with their heritage just like blacks are born with their skin. Both have to decide whether to be proud of their culture and heritage, regardless of how others may react to that.

Quote:Your holier than thou routine is odd considering I don’t name call but you do on a regular basis.

Calling someone racist is calling them names. Quit being such a hypocrite.

Quote:If this were Biden’s camp carrying signs and symbols that you dislike, storming the Capitol ...you would probably be calling them out but Trump supporters do it, and you’re vehemently defending their display? O. K.

Where do you imagine I've defended storming the Capital? Yeah, you're imagining shit. That's how far you have to go to justify calling people you don't know racist. It makes you feel righteous, so you ignore that that's the exact same name-calling you whine about me doing...except I only do it when I can objectively justify it. You just doing it because people fly a flag you don't, personally, like.

Quote:You’re attaching the labels of evil, bad and inferior. I don’t think this of people who are proud of the Confederate flag. I simply assume that they have racist tendencies against blacks. The majority of Americans find the Confederate flag offensive, but I guess you think we are all mistaken.

So you really think having "racist tendencies against blacks" isn't "bad, evil, or inferior"? Being racist isn't bad?! Are you sure you really want to defend that stupid position? o_O

Again, read what I've written. This is the third time you haven't read or comprehended this:

(Jan 7, 2021 10:03 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]And I'm not even saying their feelings are wrong. They have a right to dislike anything at all. I'm saying that claiming everyone who flies a Confederate flag is racist, as you did, is itself bigoted.

I think many people do not find the Confederate flag offensive...and once upon a time, in my lifetime, no one did. You making assumptions about people you don't know, and have nothing but superficial reason to judge, is bigoted. Judge not lest ye be judged. At least I can point out specific, non-superficial reasons for my criticisms.

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(Jan 8, 2021 06:07 PM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sure someone out there would be willing to defend the swastika, but this doesn't mean we toss out the idea that it evolved into a symbol of hatred for Jews. That symbol however, originated as a religious emblem for Hindus, and Buddhists. But, if we're honest, few today in the West, view that symbol as such. Hitler used it as a centerpiece to promote hate, and that is often how it's viewed, today.

Evolved? No, the Nazi swastika is not the same as the religious symbols and has always been a symbol of hate. And those religious symbols are still symbols of peace, etc.. There are only superficially similar, not the same.

You sound as if you've never seen the religious version. Otherwise, you'd know how easy they are to tell apart.