US and Ukrainian delegations met today in Geneva. The Ukrainian delegation was reportedly headed by Ukraine’s Presidential Chief of Staff Andriy Yermak. US participants included Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Special Envoy Steve Witkoff, Secretary of the Army Dan Driscoll, State Dept Counselor (Rubio) Michael Needham, US Amb to Ukraine Julie Davis, Deputy NSA Andy Baker, NATO Supreme Allied Commander and head of US European Command General Alex Grynkewich and Special Advisor Jared Kushner.
A participant told Jennifer Griffin:
“Talk this morning started with coordination meetings at the Intercontinental hotel. Most of those were unilateral and we had some bilateral talks. As the day progressed the Ukrainians and US delegation got together to have detailed discussions about the peace agreement. It was productive and even conclusive in some areas. There’s a formal meeting between the two delegations where they will be ironing out the details of the agreement.”
After the meetings concluded, Rubio addressed the press and said that he believes it was the “most productive and meaningful meeting so far.”
CBS News is reporting that U.S. and Ukrainian officials are discussing a potential trip by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to Washington this upcoming week, as part of a serious push by President Donald J. Trump to achieve an agreed-upon peace settlement in Ukraine by Thanksgiving, though officials say the trip is dependent on the outcome of today’s peace negotiations in Geneva.
Which apparently are making at least some progress.
The BBC's correspondent Steve Rosenberg reports on what the Russian papers are saying ..
Extracts ..
Quote:If an agreement is signed it won't be executed on the ground since this is only possible if there occupational patrols on the streets of Kyiv. So we continue fighting.
Quote:A future clash seems inevitable unless during the "breather" one of the participants is so weakened by internal turmoil that it exits the battlefield without war.
https://x.com/i/status/1992868169464402326
Steve Rosenberg
https://x.com/BBCSteveR
Halperin: Some Trump officials "very optimistic" there'll be Ukraine peace deal, and Maduro out by 12/31
https://youtu.be/t0P5xjneNfc
VIDEO EXCERPT: So where this goes next is a little unclear, and there's lots of attention on the chaos -- of whose plan it was and how it's being adjusted, and of course how much the President is putting pressure on Ukraine. Back on Truth Social on Sunday, his saying that the war is Ukraine's fault and the Ukrainians better make this deal.
So is there a deadline on Thursday? How much pressure, on what the Europeans are saying? But the momentum is towards a deal. And whether the White House has planned all this out -- good cop, bad cop -- and floating the plan, changing the plan -- I don't know whether it's purposeful.
But there are people in the administration who are very optimistic that there's going to be a peace deal by the end of the year. Maybe not by Thanksgiving, but perhaps by Christmas.
And increasing pressure on Venezuela and increasing talk that Maduro will be out also around the same time. Imagine, and I'm not predicting it, but imagine if there's a peace deal that the Ukrainians accept. That seems like under the circumstances the best available on offer, and that Madura is removed without the loss of American life.
People say Donald Trump is currently on all this foreign policy emphasis that is threatening to disappoint or anger his America first coalition.
But again, Trump has never been against aggressive use of American power and even military force overseas. As long as there's no loss of American life and as long as US interests are being served. And clearly, American interests are served by ending this war between Russia and Ukraine. Obviously, Maduro being replaced by someone friendly to the United States would be a positive...
https://youtu.be/t0P5xjneNfc
Lots of unconfirmed reports are swirling after the US/Ukraine meeting in Geneva.
The meeting seems to have involved using the 28-point plan, which was drawn up in consultation with the Russians and basically consisted of what Russia would agree to, as a basis for negotiations with the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians seem to have proposed multiple changes to the plan to make it something that they are willing to agree to. Reportedly the plan no longer consists of the same 28 points as reported earlier.
But nobody is saying anything officially and all this is based on rumors and "sources".
Now the big rumor (it's being reported by Reuters, the AP and CBS News) is that US Secretary of the Army Daniel Driscoll is meeting (as I write this) with a Russian delegation in the United Arab Emirates to officially present the Geneva-adjusted plan to Russia. Those talks in Abu Dhabi started last night and have been going all day today.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov will say only that Russia is in possession of the latest draft of the plan, but said Russia got it from "unofficial sources" (Russian intelligence?) and not directly from the US or Ukraine. “Our American colleagues have not yet provided us with the version the media are speculating about,” Lavrov said in Moscow. (That's reportedly happening right now in Abu Dhabi.)
Lavrov also did not concretely answer whether reports on the alleged Abu Dhabi talks were real or not, but did offer, “we have permanent channels of communication with the Americans.” The Russian news agency Tass is reporting on the Abu Dhabi talks.
Lavrov appeared to indicate that Moscow was pleased with the pace of the ongoing talks. He described the current state of the peace agreement, which is reportedly being continuously edited as negotiations continue, as positive in the eyes of the Russian government. “Our assessments remain in effect in that the key provisions of Trump’s plan are based on the understandings reached in Anchorage during the high-level Russia-US meeting in August,” Lavrov said. “We welcome the fact that these principles are enshrined in the plan.”
Reports surfaced late on Monday that Ukraine had agreed to the latest modified version of the peace proposal that emerged over the weekend from Geneva, so American diplomats were now trying to convince Moscow to sign on. “The Ukrainians have agreed to the peace deal,” an anonymous U.S. official supposedly told ABC News on Tuesday. “There are some minor details to be sorted out but they have agreed to a peace deal.”
The big question there is whether Kyiv agreed to "the peace deal" or "a peace deal" substantially different than the 28 points. Zelensky might feel that he has to agree to something, so as not to appear to be the obstacle to peace.
Prior to the Geneva meeting, Zelensky made an address on Ukrainian media saying, “Now is one of the most difficult moments in our history,” Zelensky declared. “Ukraine may find itself facing a very difficult choice: either the loss of dignity, or the risk of losing a key partner. Either the difficult 28 points, or an extremely difficult winter — the hardest one — and further risks.”
After the Geneva meeting, Ukrinform is reporting that the 28 points are down to 19 points. Given the fluid nature of the talks, it is unclear which points remain in the proposed agreement or precisely how they are worded.
“We will absolutely not give the enemy any reason to say that Ukraine does not want peace,” Zelensky asserted last week, “that Ukraine is disrupting the process or that Ukraine is not ready for diplomacy. That will not happen.”
Reports/rumors are swirling that Russia rejects the 19 point version of the peace plan that incorporates Ukraine's demands.
Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov is said to have said, "“After Anchorage, when we thought these understandings had already been formalized, there was a long pause. And now the pause has been broken by the introduction of this document. . . A whole series of issues there, of course, require clarification”.
The vagueness of the 28-point plan's security guarantees for Ukraine were widely seen as problematic and more specificity was expected. The guarantees definitely needed to be toughened up in some way that would keep Russia on board, short of NATO membership. But speculation now is that the 19-point plan includes Ukraine joining NATO (which was the reason why Russia originally attacked in 2022) and eliminates any cap on the size of the Ukrainian military. And Russia, with good reason, sees Ukrainian NATO membership as an unacceptable threat to Russian national security. Much as Mexico joining the Warsaw Pact during the Cold War would have been viewed. The prospect of Soviet troops on the southern US border would have drawn a military response too.
The Institute for the Study of War's assessment of the Pokrovsk 'cauldron'. ISW's assessments seem to be based largely on Ukrainian briefings in Kyiv.
![[Image: G6p3HMGXAAA6Yeq?format=png&name=medium]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G6p3HMGXAAA6Yeq?format=png&name=medium)
And the view of Rybar, an independent Russian military blog with very good contacts within the Russian army. Note that the Rybar map is from two days earlier than the ISW map, which might explain why Rybar still shows the Ukrainians maintaining positions in the south end of Myrnohrad.
Both sources agree in showing the Russians trying to seal the entrance to the pocket, but that they haven't done so completely. The increasingly besieged Ukrainian defenders could still fight their way out, but they would encounter Russian opposition in doing so. It might only be a few days before the Russians have them well and truly trapped.
The Ukrainian command really needs to think about ordering their withdrawal while they still can. Continuing to defend these hopeless positions seems increasingly pointless and just multiplies dead and wounded needlessly.
![[Image: G6iSVIfXEAAxQs7?format=jpg&name=medium]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G6iSVIfXEAAxQs7?format=jpg&name=medium)
The Ukrainians may or may not be evacuating the encircled Pokrovsk/Myrnohrad pocket.
The Institute for the Study of War (hugely influential in the US and Europe) has lost its last vestiges of objectivity and has started to function more and more as the Ukrainian propaganda department.
They show the Ukrainians still holding out in Myrnohrad.
![[Image: G7coqHWXwAA2gwX?format=jpg&name=4096x4096]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G7coqHWXwAA2gwX?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
It's useful to compare ISW's assessments (which closely follow Kyiv's official line) with the Russian telegram channel Rybar. Rybar is independent of the Russian defense ministry and seems to have very good sources in the Russian army. While Rybar obviously presents a very pro-Russian view, they aren't afraid to criticize the defense ministry and army leadership when they feel the occasion demands it. Rybar's version:
![[Image: G7fWlI6XoAAoJNF?format=jpg&name=medium]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G7fWlI6XoAAoJNF?format=jpg&name=medium)
If the Ukrainians are in fact evacuating Myrnohrad, I'd be interested in knowing what kind of losses they suffered fighting their way out. Reportedly (both sides say this) the route out is absolutely swarming with Russian drones. Escaping Ukrainian troops would be sitting ducks and might have taken/are taking/will be taking significant casualties. The Ukrainians (and ISW) would never admit it though, since Ukrainian casualties are Ukrainian top secrets. Revealing them can bring long prison sentences.
Assuming that the Ukrainians are indeed pulling out (which is unconfirmed), my own feeling is that the Ukrainians waited far too long to extract their soldiers. Pulling them out earlier would have saved them to fight another day. The cost would only have been losing positions that were doomed anyway.
Perhaps Zelensky doesn't want the bad publicity that a defeat would bring, especially since his administration is in the middle of a corruption scandal (that hasn't gotten much coverage in the US but is very big inside Ukraine).
(Dec 7, 2025 01:59 AM)Yazata Wrote: [ -> ]The Ukrainians may or may not be evacuating the encircled Pokrovsk/Myrnohrad pocket.
The Institute for the Study of War (hugely influential in the US and Europe) has lost its last vestiges of objectivity and has started to function more and more as the Ukrainian propaganda department.
They show the Ukrainians still holding out in Myrnohrad.
It's useful to compare ISW's assessments (which closely follow Kyiv's official line) with the Russian telegram channel Rybar. Rybar is independent of the Russian defense ministry and seems to have very good sources in the Russian army. While Rybar obviously presents a very pro-Russian view, they aren't afraid to criticize the defense ministry and army leadership when they feel the occasion demands it. Rybar's version:
If the Ukrainians are in fact evacuating Myrnohrad, I'd be interested in knowing what kind of losses they suffered fighting their way out. Reportedly (both sides say this) the route out is absolutely swarming with Russian drones. Escaping Ukrainian troops would be sitting ducks and might have taken/are taking/will be taking significant casualties. The Ukrainians (and ISW) would never admit it though, since Ukrainian casualties are Ukrainian top secrets. Revealing them can bring long prison sentences.
Assuming that the Ukrainians are indeed pulling out (which is unconfirmed), my own feeling is that the Ukrainians waited far too long to extract their soldiers. Pulling them out earlier would have saved them to fight another day. The cost would only have been losing positions that were doomed anyway.
Perhaps Zelensky doesn't want the bad publicity that a defeat would bring, especially since his administration is in the middle of a corruption scandal (that hasn't gotten much coverage in the US but is very big inside Ukraine).
I think the truth of the matter would likely be somewhere in between. It seems some are all to eager to push the Russian party line for whats going on.
I get it, Russia wants to use their propaganda to make Ukraine look weak to the US and elsewhere, or feel feeble. Perhaps to get them swallow the crap peace deals that are being force fed them by those that want to get the upper-hand in deal making with Russia (since if Russia is desperate like they are for clawing back out of the hole they dug themselves, they'll be willing to make deals with those they feel are shallow enough to make one with them).
Lets face it though, It's not about which battles Russia might win (eventually), it's about the overall the war they will never truly win since they don't have the support of the world.
The recent Russian trip to India just implies they are getting desperate. They are trying to make deals before anyone else pressures further sanctions so they have governments that have already committed support. That is why dragging this shit out is the stupidest thing anyone could of done when it comes to the nonsense peace deals.
It just means that the partners they get themselves involved with in any deals during this time need to be pressured too and prospective partners need to understand that includes them too.
Europe is still buying up Russian oil and gas and still hasn't sent any troops to aid Ukraine.
(Dec 7, 2025 02:30 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Europe is still buying up Russian oil and gas and still hasn't sent any troops to aid Ukraine.
If Ukraine can repair a bomb damaged power plant in less than 24 hours .. we (Europe) should be able to get any and all old coal fired power stations working within a few days. Compared to Russian gas and oil .. the lesser of two evils .. burning coal for a year or two will have no discernible impact on global climate change either way.
No troops from Europe .. Europe (and everyone else) doesn't know what Trump is going to do next. Personally I think he's being played by Putin .. but is my opinion enough to send troops in? Especially if they might end up on the wrong side of any line that Trump might negotiate?