Trump declares war on Minnesota

[Syne]

No, there has always been criminal illegal aliens, but soft-on-crime Democrats have usually ignored them... along with plenty of citizen criminals. Even Obama targeted them for raids and deportation operations.

TDS just means people are suddenly up in arms about something they've never cared about before. That hypocrisy is on them, not any changing circumstances.

[Yazata]

[Image: G_el6gCWgAASS5n?format=jpg&name=small]

[Syne]

People were out in force today protesting NICE agents in their communities.

[Yazata]

Interesting events unfolding in Minnesota tonight. Citizen journalists have publicly revealed a whole network of encrypted Signal chat forums busily organizing anti-ICE confrontations, doxxing agents, informing rioters where ICE operations were occurring and similar activities. There are strong indications that the Federal DOJ/FBI were already well aware of it and probably had it infiltrated. Most of the participants appear to be Antifa types, some from out of state, but notably journalists and public officials as well. Some of the latter appear to be high ranking state government figures. (There are unconfirmed indications that one of the group admins was from the statehouse, directly below the Tim Walz level.) It's hard to be sure because they all use pseudonyms but they also like to brag about their activities and connections and it's possible to triangulate.

Last word is that these Signal chat forums have suddenly gone quiet once they became aware that their operational security was blown. My only concern is that prematurely revealing them might have interfered with the FBI gathering evidence against certain of their participants. There's probably material there for some excellent felony cases.

[Syne]

Interesting events unfolding in Minnesota tonight. Citizen journalists have publicly revealed a whole network of encrypted Signal chat forums busily organizing anti-ICE confrontations, doxxing agents, informing rioters where ICE operations were occurring and similar activities. There are strong indications that the Federal DOJ/FBI were already well aware of it and probably had it infiltrated. Most of the participants appear to be Antifa types, some from out of state, but notably journalists and public officials as well. Some of the latter appear to be high ranking state government figures. (There are unconfirmed indications that one of the group admins was from the statehouse, directly below the Tim Walz level.) It's hard to be sure because they all use pseudonyms but they also like to brag about their activities and connections and it's possible to triangulate.

Last word is that these Signal chat forums have suddenly gone quiet once they became aware that their operational security was blown. My only concern is that prematurely revealing them might have interfered with the FBI gathering evidence against certain of their participants. There's probably material there for some excellent felony cases.

Yeah, conspiracy to obstruct federal officers:

Conspiracy to obstruct federal officers (18 U.S.C. § 372) involves two or more people conspiring to prevent, injure, or impede federal officials in their duties through force, intimidation, or threats. Violations can result in fines, imprisonment for up to six years, or both. This statute has been used in cases involving interference with law enforcement.
Related Charges:
18 U.S.C. § 111: Covers assaulting, resisting, or impeding federal officers.
- Google AI

Certainly these same people are currently moving to a different app or account. It should be just as easy to infiltrate. Use temporary dye to color your hair blue, a fake nose ring, go yell in a protest for a bit... bingo, you're in. This sort of thing only works if you have a critical mass of "observers" posting to it, so disseminating it has to be a high priority.

[Peeples]

Current methodology, it's almost as if it is designed to stoke civil unrest.

Exact same methodology as Obama:

...

The difference is Democrat politicians stoking violent rhetoric and protests against ICE.

Short of shooting American citizens dead with minimal cause, I'm not sure what else they need do... oh, wait....

You don't resist arrest while armed with zero consequences. Any lawyer will tell you not to resist law enforcement officers.

So the ICE officers in that video you posted were wearing masks to cover their identity?
They were pulling people out of their cars?

Noone denies that Obama removed millions of illegal immigrants. The difference is not there but in the way the current ICE are going about their business, exceeding their mandate, acting unlawfully. Are all the protesters' hands clean? No. Were both recent shooting victims killed unlawfully? From what I have seen, very much yes. Will those ICE agents responsible ever be held accountable? Not during this Presidential term.
This isn't TDS, or whatever you want to call it when someone disagrees with Trump and his lackeys and you want to disparage them without addressing their concerns, but is instead just an impartial look at what has happened in these two cases - and wider, with regard the current tactics employed by ICE.

Anyone who resists arrest by a Federal officer should certainly be held accountable. Shooting them dead when unarmed, however, should not be the consequence.

---

No, there has always been criminal illegal aliens, but soft-on-crime Democrats have usually ignored them... along with plenty of citizen criminals. Even Obama targeted them for raids and deportation operations.

TDS just means people are suddenly up in arms about something they've never cared about before. That hypocrisy is on them, not any changing circumstances.

Obama removed more illegal aliens per year than Trump. People in America didn't really pay attention to it because of the way it was done. Even FOX News had little to say on the matter. Now, though, it is headline news. Because of the way it is being done, and the tragic consequences of how it is being done. It's not TDS to recognise that Trump deliberately heightens the issue in an effort to benefit from it. It is what he does. Oh, and to deflect from the Epstein files, of course.

---

ICE is targeting illegal aliens with criminal records or charges. Yes, law abiding citizens don't like their country being taken advantage of by foreign criminals.

Anything else if leftist propaganda and TDS.

Trump seems to be the first to recognize the existence of millions of murderers and rapists who have invaded the country. Folks with TDS will doubt Trump is telling the truth (even when he is) - the problems on the street are the result of Trump's re-branding of illegal immigrants as murderers and rapists.

If there were millions of murderers and rapists who have invaded the country, then 1+% of the population of the USA would be a murderer or rapist. I guess only those without TDS think that the USA is so full of ****?

When someone lies as much as Trump it starts to become hard to recognise when they happen to tell the truth...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BrCvZmSnKA

[stryder]

People were out in force today protesting NICE agents in their communities.

Would the N there be "Nazi"?

It could be a concern that ICE is literally a "5th Column" and it can be questioned if those that joined more recently during the Trump administration did so for the entirely wrong reasons (likely no psychology evaluations), there has been an uptick in "Stormfronts" like "christian" groups trying to create gated communities (the sort of place hated ICE employees might want to live).

While you might consider all that preposterous and an artifact of my mind (and thus fiction), you should consider that other people out there think the same thing to about what ICE currently is and its likely the reason they are standing around protesting them.

Even Trump stated the reason ICE was in Minnesota is actually over allegations of state level Fraud where money has been supposedly mismanaged. So Even why ICE is there in some respects is a lie. (A Secret Police)

On a slightly different point, How can the Illegally Undocumented be criminals with rap sheets as long as you're arm? (As to have a rap sheet implies documenting them)

[Syne]

So the ICE officers in that video you posted were wearing masks to cover their identity?
They were pulling people out of their cars?

Noone denies that Obama removed millions of illegal immigrants. The difference is not there but in the way the current ICE are going about their business, exceeding their mandate, acting unlawfully. Are all the protesters' hands clean? No. Were both recent shooting victims killed unlawfully? From what I have seen, very much yes. Will those ICE agents responsible ever be held accountable? Not during this Presidential term.
This isn't TDS, or whatever you want to call it when someone disagrees with Trump and his lackeys and you want to disparage them without addressing their concerns, but is instead just an impartial look at what has happened in these two cases - and wider, with regard the current tactics employed by ICE.

Anyone who resists arrest by a Federal officer should certainly be held accountable. Shooting them dead when unarmed, however, should not be the consequence.

There were no protests, with people trying to dox ICE officers and threaten them and their families under Obama. Makes a huge difference.
Wearing a mask doesn't suddenly make their duties "exceeding their mandate, acting unlawfully." You'd have to cite which specific laws or legal authority you think are being violated. Enforcing federal immigration law does not end when you get into a car. 9_9

Neither where killed unlawfully. They were both breaking the law by obstructing federal officers and resisting/evading arrest. Then they made the fatal error of being perceived as an immediate threat, one by driving a car at an officer and one by resisting while armed. Both qualifying as justified uses of deadly force, which falls under qualified immunity.

I know you're new here, but I address every point. It's only once they are repeated, or without supporting argument, that I blow them off as obvious TDS. Hence the difference between my response to your argument free posts and this one.

Obama removed more illegal aliens per year than Trump. People in America didn't really pay attention to it because of the way it was done. Even FOX News had little to say on the matter. Now, though, it is headline news. Because of the way it is being done, and the tragic consequences of how it is being done. It's not TDS to recognise that Trump deliberately heightens the issue in an effort to benefit from it. It is what he does. Oh, and to deflect from the Epstein files, of course.

Yes, the leftist legacy media is the primary factor in spreading the hysteria. Between them and democrat politicians fanning the flames, they are encouraging the exact actions that got those two killed.
It's the mob-mentality protest egg before the use of force chicken.

The deflection is from democrat failures to handle crime and fraud. If it were about Epstein, leftists would be just as concerned with the Clintons refusing to testify about it.

---

People were out in force today protesting NICE agents in their communities.

Would the N there be "Nazi"?

Too bad you couldn't read Yaz' post I was responding to. 9_9

[Peeples]

There were no protests, with people trying to dox ICE officers and threaten them and their families under Obama. Makes a huge difference.

Why do you think that was? Maybe it was because of the tactics employed?

Wearing a mask doesn't suddenly make their duties "exceeding their mandate, acting unlawfully." You'd have to cite which specific laws or legal authority you think are being violated. Enforcing federal immigration law does not end when you get into a car. 9_9

They have, per the courts, violated Fourth Amendment rights, detaining people without probable cause. They have violated Due Process rights. They have targeted US citizens on hundreds of occasions. Internal investigations have revealed that ICE agents have used unwarranted access to certain databases in their searches. That's even before you get to the exceeding of their mandate, such as entering homes without judicial warrants, using childredn as bait, overstepping state authority, violating asylum protocols, etc.

Neither where killed unlawfully. They were both breaking the law by obstructing federal officers and resisting/evading arrest. Then they made the fatal error of being perceived as an immediate threat, one by driving a car at an officer and one by resisting while armed. Both qualifying as justified uses of deadly force, which falls under qualified immunity.

Actual footage shows that in the first instance she was not driving at an officer, but was turning away.
Actual footage of the second instance shows that he was carrying a phone in his hand, then when he was on the ground they stripped him of the gun that he had a permit to carry, and, once removed from him, they shot him. 10 shots were heard. Against an unarmed man on the ground.
Now, in the current political situation in the US, we will possibly never find out if the two people were killed unlawfully (i.e. letting a jury of peers make that assessment). Just because an officer perceives someone as an immediate threat is not in itself sufficient justification to use lethal force. Certainly in the second there seems to be zero question that there was no immediate threat, and the first is something a jury might have to decide. At least in normal times. However, with the DoJ firmly in Trump's pocket, and the FBI similarly, both refusing to even investigate the first officer, and restricting/limiting local enforcement from doing so, preferring instead to investigate the driver and her wife, neither case will likely get to trial.

I know you're new here, but I address every point. It's only once they are repeated, or without supporting argument, that I blow them off as obvious TDS. Hence the difference between my response to your argument free posts and this one.

You can blow off whatever you want out of your arse. If you want to dismiss things as "obvious TDS", that really only reflects poorly on you and your ability to hold a reasonable discussion. As for me, I would be thinking these were unlawful shootings, based on the footage I have seen, whether it was Trump in the chair or Obama, or Bush, or Biden, or Reagan, or Abraham Lincoln. I would at least be investigating impartially. But in these two cases there is zero chance of that while the DoJ and FBI are running things.

Yes, the leftist legacy media is the primary factor in spreading the hysteria. Between them and democrat politicians fanning the flames, they are encouraging the exact actions that got those two killed. It's the mob-mentality protest egg before the use of force chicken.

People are allowed to protest. It is a Constitutional right, isn't it? The fanning of flames is historically from the right, but, sure, the left aren't innocent of that, and given the tactics specifically aimed at Democratic cities, and the ham-fisted approach of the ICE agents themselves, it is certainly riling up people in those cities. The situation certainly isn't helped by a President who does nothing other than pour fuel on the fire.
The thing is, the ICE surge in Minnesota has very little to do with actually rounding up and deporting criminal illegal aliens (heck, over 60% over migrants detained by ICE have no criminal record), but everything to do with punishing Minnesota, trying to extort Minnesota with regard voter rolls amid other things.

The deflection is from democrat failures to handle crime and fraud. If it were about Epstein, leftists would be just as concerned with the Clintons refusing to testify about it.

They are concerned. Most "leftists" want to get to the truth about those files. The Clintons will be held accountable if they continue to refuse, just as everyone else should. Most "leftists" don't care whether those who are in the files are Republican or Democrat, politicians or Joe Public, billionnaires or paupers: they just want the truth established. And, as of now, noone can trust anything that the FBI or DoJ say on the matter. Release the files! But Trump is doing everything not to.

The only TDS on show, it seems, is that suffered by those on the right that are too deranged to see anything wrong with Trump, or his lackeys, or his tactics, or his policies, and who simply dismiss any or all criticism that they don't like.
Please don't confirm to me that you have the TDS I am starting to suspect you to have.

[Syne]

There were no protests, with people trying to dox ICE officers and threaten them and their families under Obama. Makes a huge difference.

Why do you think that was? Maybe it was because of the tactics employed?

Yes, the leftist legacy media is the primary factor in spreading the hysteria.

No different tactics other than the necessity of dealing with mobs. These same operations have been going on in many states, including Democrat cities, without any problem at all. That's because ICE is allowed to simply to their job...like they were under Obama.

Wearing a mask doesn't suddenly make their duties "exceeding their mandate, acting unlawfully." You'd have to cite which specific laws or legal authority you think are being violated. Enforcing federal immigration law does not end when you get into a car. 9_9

They have, per the courts, violated Fourth Amendment rights, detaining people without probable cause. They have violated Due Process rights. They have targeted US citizens on hundreds of occasions. Internal investigations have revealed that ICE agents have used unwarranted access to certain databases in their searches. That's even before you get to the exceeding of their mandate, such as entering homes without judicial warrants, using childredn as bait, overstepping state authority, violating asylum protocols, etc.

Cite the court rulings. I'll bet they're all democrat-appointed activist judges who regularly have their rulings overturned by appellate courts.
All law enforcement can detain people without charges for a set period of time. So that, itself, is not illegal. All illegal aliens being targeted already have removal orders signed by an immigration judge, e.g. due process.
Cite the cases of "targeting US citizens."
What databases?

The "using children as bait" was a lie, already debunked. The father fled, abandoning his five year old child.
Federal agents are not bound by "state authority" nor sanctuary state policies, per the supremacy clause of the Constitution. Nor does US law mandate granting asylum.

Lots of gish gallop there without any substance to back it up. 9_9

Neither where killed unlawfully. They were both breaking the law by obstructing federal officers and resisting/evading arrest. Then they made the fatal error of being perceived as an immediate threat, one by driving a car at an officer and one by resisting while armed. Both qualifying as justified uses of deadly force, which falls under qualified immunity.

Actual footage shows that in the first instance she was not driving at an officer, but was turning away.

Officer couldn't know that. Don't substitute armchair analysis of frame-by-frame footage for situational awareness in a moment of heightened tension.
Hell, even the footage shows her tires spin pointed straight at the officer, while he hears the engine rev.

Actual footage of the second instance shows that he was carrying a phone in his hand, then when he was on the ground they stripped him of the gun that he had a permit to carry, and, once removed from him, they shot him. 10 shots were heard. Against an unarmed man on the ground.

Again, armchair analysis devoid of what could be known, in those 5 seconds, by an officer in that chaos.
Regardless, resisting arrest while armed is a potentially deadly situation in any circumstance. Any lawyer will tell you not to resist, as that is committing a crime while armed.

Now, in the current political situation in the US, we will possibly never find out if the two people were killed unlawfully (i.e. letting a jury of peers make that assessment). Just because an officer perceives someone as an immediate threat is not in itself sufficient justification to use lethal force.

It actually is, by law. It's the basis for every self-defense case, even civilian, and why law enforcement have qualified immunity.

Certainly in the second there seems to be zero question that there was no immediate threat, and the first is something a jury might have to decide. At least in normal times.

You cannot know what danger officers perceived in the moment. For example, if they discovered he was armed, didn't see if he was disarmed, and saw him reaching for where he had a weapon, that would be immediate danger for all of the officers present.

Have you ever been in a dangerous situation? Doesn't sound like it.

I know you're new here, but I address every point. It's only once they are repeated, or without supporting argument, that I blow them off as obvious TDS. Hence the difference between my response to your argument free posts and this one.

You can blow off whatever you want out of your arse. If you want to dismiss things as "obvious TDS", that really only reflects poorly on you and your ability to hold a reasonable discussion. As for me, I would be thinking these were unlawful shootings, based on the footage I have seen, whether it was Trump in the chair or Obama, or Bush, or Biden, or Reagan, or Abraham Lincoln. I would at least be investigating impartially. But in these two cases there is zero chance of that while the DoJ and FBI are running things.

No, when you spout opinions without any supporting arguments, it's fair to dismiss that. And even though you've started making arguments, so far, their devoid of support.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens

Armchair analysis is not a legal predicate for charges, and qualified immunity means there is an internal investigation which only has to clear the reasonable perception of danger (e.g. self-defense) hurdle.

Yes, the leftist legacy media is the primary factor in spreading the hysteria. Between them and democrat politicians fanning the flames, they are encouraging the exact actions that got those two killed. It's the mob-mentality protest egg before the use of force chicken.

People are allowed to protest. It is a Constitutional right, isn't it? The fanning of flames is historically from the right, but, sure, the left aren't innocent of that, and given the tactics specifically aimed at Democratic cities, and the ham-fisted approach of the ICE agents themselves, it is certainly riling up people in those cities. The situation certainly isn't helped by a President who does nothing other than pour fuel on the fire.
The thing is, the ICE surge in Minnesota has very little to do with actually rounding up and deporting criminal illegal aliens (heck, over 60% over migrants detained by ICE have no criminal record), but everything to do with punishing Minnesota, trying to extort Minnesota with regard voter rolls amid other things.

No one said people couldn't protest. But obstructing/assaulting law enforcement or resisting/evading arrest are crimes. Crimes are not a Constitutional right.
Again, not happening in any city where people aren't obstructing and harassing officers. Walz and Frey are the ones pouring the most fuel on the fire, as they have the power to both respect ICE detainers and allow local law enforcement to to crowd control. Either way, ICE would not have to interact with the public.

But sure, go ahead and blame Trump. 9_9

Your 60% betrays that you get your news from biased leftist sources. Even so, all illegal aliens have broken our immigration laws, and

Civil Rights Act of 1960: Title III of this act requires election officials to retain and, upon written request, turn over voting records to the Attorney General for inspection.
National Voter Registration Act of 1993 (NVRA): This law requires states to make "reasonable efforts" to maintain accurate voter rolls (e.g., removing deceased voters) and to make these maintenance records available for public inspection.
Help America Vote Act of 2002 (HAVA): The DOJ cites this act to ensure states are properly checking voter eligibility during registration.
- Google AI

Minnesota is violating existing laws by trying to withhold their voter rolls.

The deflection is from democrat failures to handle crime and fraud. If it were about Epstein, leftists would be just as concerned with the Clintons refusing to testify about it.

They are concerned. Most "leftists" want to get to the truth about those files. The Clintons will be held accountable if they continue to refuse, just as everyone else should. Most "leftists" don't care whether those who are in the files are Republican or Democrat, politicians or Joe Public, billionnaires or paupers: they just want the truth established. And, as of now, noone can trust anything that the FBI or DoJ say on the matter. Release the files! But Trump is doing everything not to.

No, there's actually not much repercussions from the Clintons ignoring a congressional subpoena.

While many officials are held in contempt, actual imprisonment is rare because the Department of Justice frequently declines to prosecute executive branch officials who claim executive privilege.
- Google AI

So where is the pressure from Democrat congressmen? I haven't seen any at all.

The Trump admin is currently releasing files, as per court order, after necessary redactions. That's where we got all the Bill Clinton photos from.

The only TDS on show, it seems, is that suffered by those on the right that are too deranged to see anything wrong with Trump, or his lackeys, or his tactics, or his policies, and who simply dismiss any or all criticism that they don't like.
Please don't confirm to me that you have the TDS I am starting to suspect you to have.

Yeah, yeah, keep trying to redefine that term all you like. It only flies among leftists, e.g. TDS sufferers.
It's pretty clear, already, that you're a "us vs them" person, who really wants to paint any disagreement as being "far-right" or "Trump lackey" or whatever else you feel justifies your binary world view.

So you will obviously believe whatever you want, regardless of anything I say.

9_9