Atheists can be spiritual too

[Magical Realist]

Sounds like mental masturbation.

That would be the activity you most would identify with.

[Leigha]

Personally, and I can only speak for me, the greater good comes in the form of selflessness. We find ourselves when we are most selfless. When we focus on only our own happiness, seeking to achieve it at all costs, we will be the least happy. This can be true if you believe in a god/higher power, or if you are an atheist. I find that chasing pleasure, chasing happiness...it will eventually cause a person to hit a wall. Look at celebrities who commit suicide, there have been quite a few all things considered, over the past few years. What were they seeking? The struggle is real within us all, when we find that this life, and all of its attractions and distractions don't satisfy.

So, selflessness leads one to Self, in my opinion. I don't disagree with some of what you're saying MR, in terms of 'being one's self,' but I'm not sure that's enough, to live a life of joy. Not that you should be someone else, lol but that there still has to be a greater good...a collective greater good...lest we become lost in ourselves. Consumed with self absorption, and that usually leads to darkness and despair.

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The essence of the spiritual life is captured in this quote by poet Mary Oliver:

“Ten times a day something happens to me like this - some strengthening throb of amazement - some good sweet empathic ping and swell. This is the first, the wildest and the wisest thing I know: that the soul exists and is built entirely out of attentiveness.”
― Mary Oliver

A spiritual experience need not always be awe-inspiring. It can also be a sense of deep connection and intimacy with nature, with animals, or with other humans, inspiring a generous and compassionate feeling of open-heartedness to all experience.

No, it's not. Spirituality is not all about feeling good, like awe, connection, or being compassionate. That is self-interested gratification.

There is a huge contingent of atheists who simply never think of God any more than they think about mermaids or unicorns. We can call these people secularists I suppose. Their interests are entirely consumed by the 10,000 things of this world.

spir·it·u·al·i·ty
   the quality of being concerned with the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.

It doesn't require a god, but it does denote a definite dichotomy from physical things.

I think that there are two somewhat opposing definitions of ''spirituality.'' One, having to do with religion and/or theist/deism, etc and the other having to do with the beauty, connection and resilience of the human spirit. There is a caveat in which the latter can also take on a metaphysical component in which one views the universe as living, and everything is ''connected.'' Personally, this has always left me a bit empty, because in the end, one is still left grappling with the fundamental existential questions.

I think the one having to do with religion need not include god, as in Buddhism. Spirituality is primarily concerned with, as the root word indicates, the spirit, as opposed to the material world. Beauty and connection are something anyone can find, without any need to label it something esoteric, like "spiritual". The need to co-opt such labels is a response to a sense of emptiness that people won't/can't allow themselves to fill other than superficially.

If we are here by random chance, then why be spiritual? What does it do for a person to cling to the idea that we have a purpose, yet how we arrived here is random?  Personally, once I started unraveling those ideas, I was left concluding that a higher power likely exists.

I agree, but if we do happen to be here by random chance, the only other thing that justifies spirituality is the notion of an effectively immortal soul. A spirit that faces consequences beyond the term of a material life. Whether that be some ultimately attainable reward, oneness, or an ongoing learning process from life to life. Personally, I believe both, that we are not here by random chance and that we live beyond the material.

And I can't fathom how people justify the belief in things like ghosts while disbelieving in an immortal spirit. I guess just chalk that up to the human mind's ability to avoid its own inconsistencies.

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If we are here by random chance, then why be spiritual?

Because our meaning here in the universe isn't dependent on us having some purpose or destiny. We are not like hammers or wheelbarrows. We are not mere objects designed to accomplish some goal. We are as purposeless as the trees and the stars. All of our meaning resides inside of our being, in how we become who we are and what we become. Our meaning is found only in ourselves, in the fact that we are and are innately of value. The attempt to impose purpose on human life is the failing of all religion. We are not the tools of some higher will. We are inherently meaningful in our own being.

So, we determine our meaning? To whom, though? To ourselves? How do you know with certainty, that our lives have no objective purpose?

Hence the hedonistic tendencies. What else is there to strive for, if our purpose is nothing but self-interested?

Yes, when we are entirely self interested/self consumed, we may even make the mistake of performing ''good works'' of charity, only to feel better about ourselves. 

I agree with your point above - we're not here by random chance, and there is something beyond the material at work. There would be no point for an immortal soul to exist, if human life was a random chance occurrence, imo. Of course, this is all left up to our individual interpretations, each of us on a path that seemingly brings us joy.

But, that's the key right there - do you have peace despite your daily struggles? In the midst of struggle, if we can feel a sense of sustainable peace, therein lies the most enlightened path. If one's state of peace exists as a byproduct of temporal pleasures, vanity and ego satisfaction...I'd have to say that's a path that will lead to darkness, eventually.

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For some reason, I can't cherry pick the quotes that I wish to isolate, and reply to. 

[Syne]

Sounds like mental masturbation.

That would be the activity you most would identify with.

And that's the only thing you could manage to reply to when I've demonstrated the idiocy of your claims...by simply asking you questions you can't or won't answer.

Yes, when we are entirely self interested/self consumed, we may even make the mistake of performing ''good works'' of charity, only to feel better about ourselves. 

When people "do good" to feel better about themselves, they often end up doing more harm through unforeseen or just plain negligent consequences. You have to genuinely care about those you help to do real good...often even by knowing when to not helping at all.

I agree with your point above - we're not here by random chance, and there is something beyond the material at work. There would be no point for an immortal soul to exist, if human life was a random chance occurrence, imo.

Good point. I just try to entertain all possibilities, whether I believe them or not.

But, that's the key right there - do you have peace despite your daily struggles? In the midst of struggle, if we can feel a sense of sustainable peace, therein lies the most enlightened path. If one's state of peace exists as a byproduct of temporal pleasures, vanity and ego satisfaction...I'd have to say that's a path that will lead to darkness, eventually.

I think that when you have abiding peace, you don't really recognize struggles as such. Maybe more challenges, adventures, and learning opportunities.

Any well-being dependent on external things is like a drug addiction. You crave it and will end up doing a lot of bad to attain it...ultimately finding you can never again achieve that initial high. Maybe that's what MR is trying to say, but he's conflating well-being with purpose, where purpose is necessary to well-being but purpose also requires external goals. He also doesn't seem to understand that a larger purpose is an expansion of being, rather than a subjugation of being.

[Magical Realist]

Personally, and I can only speak for me, the greater good comes in the form of selflessness. We find ourselves when we are most selfless.

No..selflessness is that old Judeo-Christian ideal imposed on us from our culture. It is a lie of becoming an empty tool for the will of others. We are here to become our true selves and not serve some external purpose. Only things have purpose and we are not things. All of our meaning resides inside ourselves and in the silence that is our soulful connection to the universe. If we don't tap into that we will never find the joy and peace of an authentic life.

“The healing that comes with self-acceptance rippled through my life. As I embraced my carefree nature, I began living from my truth, and watched as the pure expression of who I am and the love I bring to the world illuminated my life.”
― Shelley Lundquist, Inspiration for a Woman's Soul: Opening to Grace & Gratitude

[Leigha]

Since I can't multi-quote for some reason, I'll answer here lol

@ Syne - to your point about not recognizing struggles as such, when it comes to abiding peace. That's true, in a sense, but what I mean is that in the midst of turmoil, there is still an abiding peace, because the peace isn't contingent upon external circumstances. One doesn't necessarily need to be ''happy'' to be at peace. I think this is where people get tripped up a bit. How can one have peace if his/her loved one is dying of cancer? How can one have peace if he/she just lost their job? But, peace is the understanding that things will work out, even if we have no earthly idea how that is even possible, in the given moment.

Temporal happiness - the rush we get from accomplishments, a job promotion, or a newfound love - isn't sustainable. We are human and should enjoy those brief moments of pleasure, but we should also try to find the joy, even when things are bleak. It is often in our darkest moments, when we find the hope to make progress. If it weren't for troubled times, we wouldn't seek to grow.

But, in it all, we can lean on that abiding peace. It's not easy. And frankly, it takes time and much trial and error. Maybe the path itself is the abiding peace, and it's not a ''final destination,'' so to speak. I find my abiding peace in God, and his objective truths. But, his truths have become mine. This isn't to say that an atheist can't find an abiding peace in this life, but where might it come from? Where does peace come from, if we are creating our own ideas of it?

Can peace be subjective?

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Personally, and I can only speak for me, the greater good comes in the form of selflessness. We find ourselves when we are most selfless.

No..selflessness is that old Judeo-Christian ideal imposed on us from our culture. It is a lie of becoming an empty tool for the will of others. We are here to become our true selves and not serve some external purpose. Only things have purpose and we are not things. All of our meaning resides inside ourselves and in the silence that is our soulful connection to the universe. If we don't tap into that we will never find the joy and peace of an authentic life.

I don't disagree with your premise, and again, since this is bordering philosophy, it's all open to interpretation.

How do you personally become your true self? Just curious, what is your ''truth?''

If someone's truth isn't another's truth, how can we collectively find peace as a society? Is that possible, do you think? (I believe that all it takes is respecting others' views, but suppose those views somehow trample upon others' rights?) 

Whenever we think we have the answers, there's always another question lol 

[Magical Realist]

How do you personally become your true self? Just curious, what is your ''truth?''

Find the thing that thrills your heart and follow it. Learn to accept who and what you are. Remain open to all experiences. Go with the natural ebb and flow of your life. And learn to let go. That's my truth(s).

“Seek out that particular mental attribute which makes you feel most deeply and vitally alive, along with which comes the inner voice which says, 'This is the real me,' and when you have found that attitude, follow it.”
― William James, The Principles of Psychology

[Secular Sanity]

I find my abiding peace in God, and his objective truths. But, his truths have become mine.

Objectivity is independent of individual subjectivity. An objective truth is the same for all people.

This isn't to say that an atheist can't find an abiding peace in this life, but where might it come from? Where does peace come from, if we are creating our own ideas of it?

Ah, but where is God? Where does God come from? Where might we find him?

So, we determine our meaning? To whom, though? To ourselves? How do you know with certainty, that our lives have no objective purpose?

We come into being as a slight thickening at the end of a long thread. Cells proliferate, become an excrescence, and assume the shape of a man. The end of the thread now lies buried within, shielded, inviolate. Our task is to bear it forward, pass it on. We flourish for a moment, achieve a bit of singing and dancing, a few memories we would carve in stone, then we wither, twist out of shape. The end of the thread lies now in our children, extends back through us, unbroken, unfathomably into the past. Numberless thickenings have appeared on it, have flourished and have fallen away as we now fall away. Nothing remains but the germ-line. What changes to produce new structures as life evolves is not the momentary excrescence but the hereditary arrangements within the thread. We are carriers of spirit. We know not how nor why nor where. On our shoulders, in our eyes, in anguished hands through unclear realm, into a future unknown, unknowable, and in continual creation, we bear its full weight. Depends it on us utterly, yet we know it not. We inch it forward with each beat of heart, give to it the work of hand, of mind. We falter, pass it on to our children, lay out our bones, fall away, are lost, forgotten. We are being used. Should we not know in whose service? To whom, to what, give we unwitting loyalty? What is this quest? Beyond that which we have what could we want?

… So we go searching after God-and is this not spirit, becoming aware of itself, reaching for a vision of that toward which it moves? We want to see what it is this striving strives toward. Being used, we seek to know the purpose we serve, want then to give to the great design our holiest word, God.—Allen Wheelis

If we believe we were molded by the free play of physical forces, it is those physical forces that imply a design to some degree, a design to proliferate, and extend existence beyond our own. Other living creature do not need a subjective alternative to their natural instincts. Why should we?

Our concepts of god will not save us from the uncertainties that we all have to face. You can’t create a fabled construction of victory over our human limitations by sheltering oneself in mysticism. If you find no value in life, similar to an antinatalist, you can always opt out.

[Magical Realist]

This isn't to say that an atheist can't find an abiding peace in this life, but where might it come from? Where does peace come from, if we are creating our own ideas of it?

We are not "creating our own ideas of it". We access peace thru connecting with nature and the universe. Even religion knows about this. I'm surprised you aren't familiar with it. We are immersed in a transcendent world full of soothing energies and tranquil vistas. We have only to open ourselves to it in our solitary moments.

“Soul is found where life deepens us, where meaning calls to us, where trouble deters us, wherever and however we slow down in the midst of the rushing and racing at the surface level of life.”
― Michael Meade, Why the World Doesn't End: Tales of Renewal in Times of Loss

“We enter solitude, in which also we lose loneliness…True solitude is found in the wild places, where one is without human obligation. One’s inner voices become audible. One feels the attraction of one’s most intimate sources."---Wendell Berry

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[C C]

There are many paths towards spirituality, many of which don't involve the belief in a deity. When I left faith, I still felt a yearning towards spirituality. Perhaps, this is an innate quality within most humans, to desire a path that leads one away from an existential crisis. Why are we here? What is our purpose? I believe in God, now but didn't always, and yet still felt an enriched sense of purpose, when following philosophies that were fundamentally ''spiritual.''

What "god" means has probably become as loose as spiritual, so I don't entirely discount proposals that some non-theists have functionally (but very mildly) replaced the Middle Ages God of the West with "nature", "physical laws", science worship (scientism), Marxism reverence, etc. Especially considering the underlying origin or stimulus for god candidates of old.

Gods begin as concepts (like war, love, justice, beauty, etc) or more complex ideational systems and principles, that have been reified either observably or super-phenomenally to be personhoods or less concrete agencies. Because a majority of people have historically related to abstract forms better that way.

Needless to say, a super-phenomenal god arguably endures more adeptly since they're not expected to materialize as objects in the world of appearances. Your God sounds like the complicated concept version (a system that has been personified or given agency), and it can be protected by projecting it onto the supposed intelligible level that is prior in rank to the manifested external world outputted by the brain (or whatever particular instance of generic mind).

Philosophical naturalists, philosophers in general, atheists, scientists, and scientism groupies project their own alternatives or abstract variations of the given outer realm onto that same metaphysical territory. So if the latter is crackpot, it is a widely accepted crackpot activity (only certain perspectives like solipsism and other schools of thought do not do that fully, and they're ironically what is often labeled crackpot).

The one stipulation, however, is that if God is claimed to show up itself as an object/avatar in the everyday world either in the past, today, or the future -- then that proposed presence and influence is subject to empirical investigations of science. (Although there may be cryptic ways of doing things within the rules of naturalism, that masquerade as events that are explainable as coincidences and normal statistical expectations, and so forth -- where only a certain individual or group apprehends or carries the double-meaning slash interpretation for the event.)

Similarly, not being receptive to science accordingly results in a trade-off of a super-phenomenal god not carrying much weight or influence in a secular-oriented society or its government which revolves around testable beliefs. Although we all know that's an idealized portrayal or an "in theory" assertion -- there may be many items which a modern state/population wallows in which don't qualify for that. The influence of humanities publications, political beliefs, etc, or are derived from bad science, especially with regard to the replication problems of the social/psychological sciences and biomedical sciences, as well as traditions from pre-scientific eras lingering around.

[Syne]

@ Syne - to your point about not recognizing struggles as such, when it comes to abiding peace. That's true, in a sense, but what I mean is that in the midst of turmoil, there is still an abiding peace, because the peace isn't contingent upon external circumstances. One doesn't necessarily need to be ''happy'' to be at peace. I think this is where people get tripped up a bit. How can one have peace if his/her loved one is dying of cancer? How can one have peace if he/she just lost their job? But, peace is the understanding that things will work out, even if we have no earthly idea how that is even possible, in the given moment.

Temporal happiness - the rush we get from accomplishments, a job promotion, or a newfound love - isn't sustainable. We are human and should enjoy those brief moments of pleasure, but we should also try to find the joy, even when things are bleak. It is often in our darkest moments, when we find the hope to make progress. If it weren't for troubled times, we wouldn't seek to grow.

But, in it all, we can lean on that abiding peace. It's not easy. And frankly, it takes time and much trial and error. Maybe the path itself is the abiding peace, and it's not a ''final destination,'' so to speak. I find my abiding peace in God, and his objective truths. But, his truths have become mine. This isn't to say that an atheist can't find an abiding peace in this life, but where might it come from? Where does peace come from, if we are creating our own ideas of it?

Can peace be subjective?

Oh, I didn't mean to exclude that. I agree. You can recognize them as struggles and still hold an inner core of peace. Yeah, peace is more like peace of mind or inner equilibrium than happiness or joy. I would tend to think peace is a practice rather than a destination.

Generally, I think peace is mostly an inner resilience. A resilience that can withstand self-doubt and stress. You might face some horrible circumstances, but you have the confidence to know you won't crumble under the burden.

The secular world is big on things like safe spaces because they lack that sort of inner resilience. I'm not sure where an atheist would find such inner resilience without some belief in a soul or spirit. Otherwise, they generally believe they are at the mercies of their biology, often without even free will.