Atheists can be spiritual too

#61
(Jul 3, 2019 04:28 AM)Leigha Wrote:
(Jul 3, 2019 12:25 AM)Syne Wrote:
(Jul 2, 2019 03:59 AM)Leigha Wrote: CC, Syne, MR and SS have me wondering after reading all of your replies - when does a spiritual view, become one of faith? I consider myself to be a spiritual person, but because I also believe in God, it requires faith. Faith is the belief of things not yet seen, and not objectively provable. Yet, I believe.

Real spirituality differs, from the "spiritual" that CC, MR, & SS define as simple awe, connection, etc. (that everyone experiences at some point, even without any pretense at spirituality) or even meditation that any self-indulgent weenie can do, by requiring things their self-gratifying notions do not. Like the humility to accept that you and your intellect are not the sole arbiters of truth and the faith in something greater, through which we become greater ourselves.

But I must admit that I don't normally think of it in terms of faith...and not because it's simply tainted by religion, which is the only reason MR can't admit his belief in ghosts is faith in the unknown. I think of it in terms of taking a god's eye perspective...which is the definition of objective.

lol ''self indulgent weenie"  

I agree with your way of thinking, in that we are not the sole arbiters of truth. I mean, on some level, we all have our own value system that may or may not be acceptable to others' value systems, but you don't need to be ''spiritual'' to develop a code of ethics, really. 
Of course. Although secular/atheist people do tend to have dubious morality, that's not an absolute.
Quote:You know, going through my own faith ''journey'' so to speak, I'd say that faith isn't at all connected to religion for me, anymore. I'm grateful that I broke away from the trappings of religion, so that I could see God in a different light. So, that I could live a life without believing in God, as well. My life wasn't ''bad,'' per se, but it lacked something. That something is different for all of us, I guess...but if I'm honest, I think we all have a yearning for a truth that can't be seen or fully understood. Spirituality isn't a feel good concept, although it can be rewarding. It is more than that, and it fosters a purposeful life...however that may look for the individual.
I agree. IMO, religion is a communal set-dressing for spirituality. It's the part of personal spirituality that is instantly recognizable and relatable to others, and of which you can partake as a group. I think religion is a good primer for spirituality, and a good foundation for children, but as an adult, I think some independence of thought is necessary to a true understanding of god.

A god's eye perspective, even dimly seen, often illuminates how the individual fits into the world, and their purpose therein.
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#62
In thinking about this thread a little more, I'd say that when I identified as an atheist a few years back, I felt a sense of longing, that I couldn't really pinpoint. That longing was for spirituality, I've come to realize now. Does spirituality have to encompass a belief in God? Not necessarily, I guess...but for me, it did. I believe in God, and that there is a ''plan'' for my life, and that aching went away when I came back to faith.

I have atheists as friends who have never deconverted, meaning they never believed, and have always been atheists. They were raised by atheists, as kids, which is somewhat unusual, as many atheists are former theists/believers. That said, they might not have the same longing that I did after leaving the faith, but they feel a void that they can't explain. They have existential questions that they can't answer. I wonder sometimes if they're afraid to explore where that longing might lead them, because it can be scary when we recognize a void in our lives, and don't know how to handle it.
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#63
Most people without any spiritual belief system (as opposed to the faux spiritual stuff like yoga, meditation, communing with nature, etc.) do seem desperate to fill a hole in their lives. So desperate they'll often try to fill it with substance use, staying in bad relationships, and even deifying things like the government so they have a "cause" to bond over and participate in. Where believers have a peace in knowing things tend to work out as they should, given the requisite personal effort, atheists often feel the need to recruit government power (read force) to accomplish their goals (read make others do what they want). That need to control others is a symptom of the feeling of disconnection.
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#64
Yep ^^ - we all yearn for something more...more than what even our own accomplishments can give us. We yearn for peace, over happiness, but the world's narratives keep tempting us to think otherwise. Thing is, I don't judge what someone's spiritual path is...if someone finds happiness with communing with nature, that's great. I think that we all come away with a deeper sense of self, and the world around us if we stop focusing on Self, interestingly enough. But, eventually...for me...it came to a point where I didn't just want to commune with nature, but wanted to know who was behind the creation of it. It's in that deeper connection spiritually, than I'm able to appreciate nature that much more.
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#65
Yeah, to each their own. It's just sad when people misuse words they don't understand, like transcendence. That false sense of knowledge is the biggest barrier to real understanding.
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#66
transcendent
(trænˈsɛndənt )
adjective
1.
transcending; surpassing; excelling; extraordinary

2. Philosophy
a.
beyond the limits of possible experience
b.
in Kantianism, beyond human knowledge

3. Theology
existing apart from the material universe

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dic...anscendent

One would have to be an idiot not to acknowledge the universe's surpassing, excelling, extraordinariness. It is the source of all transcendence in human experience. If you've ever gazed up at the pale cloud of the milky way on a dark moonless night you know what I'm talking about.

Quote:Thing is, I don't judge what someone's spiritual path is...if someone finds happiness with communing with nature, that's great. I think that we all come away with a deeper sense of self, and the world around us if we stop focusing on Self, interestingly enough.

That's what all spirituality comes down to: an abiding sense of a reality greater and more important than one's own ego. God and his angels or the starry infinite universe. Unfortunately some never make it past the ego stage and simply expose their ignorance of anything spiritual at all.
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#67
(Jul 14, 2019 08:55 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: transcendent
(trænˈsɛndənt  )
adjective
1.
transcending; surpassing; excelling; extraordinary

2.  Philosophy
a.
beyond the limits of possible experience
b.
in Kantianism, beyond human knowledge

3.  Theology
existing apart from the material universe

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dic...anscendent

One would have to be an idiot not to acknowledge the universe's surpassing, excelling, extraordinariness. It is the source of all transcendence in human experience. If you've ever gazed up at the pale cloud of the milky way on a dark moonless night you know what I'm talking about.
It only proves my point that, of all those definitions, you only chose to identify with the mundane one. In that sense of the word, the Alps transcend the surface of the earth, space transcends our atmosphere, an A student transcends a C student, and many world records transcend common accomplishments. Nothing inherently spiritual about any of that.

One wonders why you bothered to quote the other definitions at all. Rolleyes
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#68
Quote:It only proves my point that, of all those definitions, you only chose to identify with the mundane one. In that sense of the word, the Alps transcend the surface of the earth, space transcends our atmosphere, an A student transcends a C student, and many world records transcend common accomplishments. Nothing inherently spiritual about any of that.

Then there's no reason to think the transcendence of God is anything special at all either. Especially if it means simply surpassing. Fortunately transcendent takes on a wholly real spiritual meaning in nature. Here it impresses the humble human with its majesty and power. Here the intensity of the surpassing overwhelms the human spirit with its vastness and superiority. Here it is an authentic spiritual experience. Your ignorance of this experience is not surprising.
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#69
(Jul 14, 2019 10:33 PM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:It only proves my point that, of all those definitions, you only chose to identify with the mundane one. In that sense of the word, the Alps transcend the surface of the earth, space transcends our atmosphere, an A student transcends a C student, and many world records transcend common accomplishments. Nothing inherently spiritual about any of that.

Then there's no reason to think the transcendence of God is anything special at all either. Especially if it means simply surpassing. Fortunately transcendent takes on a wholly real spiritual meaning in nature. Here it impresses the humble human with its majesty and power. Here the intensity of the surpassing overwhelms the human spirit with its vastness and superiority. Here it is an authentic spiritual experience. Your ignorance of this experience is not surprising.

Again, you're completely ignoring the other two definition YOU QUOTED. Dodgy
Is that transparent intellectual dishonesty or honest attentional bias? I would think it would be hard to copy/paste something you're completely unaware of.
Again, for the umpteenth time, appreciation for nature is only humbling or awe inspiring. It is not "beyond the limits of possible experience", "beyond human knowledge", or "existing apart from the material universe".

An honest and humble person could acknowledge that their use of the word transcendent is obviously limited. But that's just it. You're too busy defending your ego to even countenance the other definition...much less make any attempt to justify that you experience them. You might as well just be parroting secular "spiritual" dogma. Angel
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#70
(Jul 14, 2019 11:20 PM)Syne Wrote:
(Jul 14, 2019 10:33 PM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:It only proves my point that, of all those definitions, you only chose to identify with the mundane one. In that sense of the word, the Alps transcend the surface of the earth, space transcends our atmosphere, an A student transcends a C student, and many world records transcend common accomplishments. Nothing inherently spiritual about any of that.

Then there's no reason to think the transcendence of God is anything special at all either. Especially if it means simply surpassing. Fortunately transcendent takes on a wholly real spiritual meaning in nature. Here it impresses the humble human with its majesty and power. Here the intensity of the surpassing overwhelms the human spirit with its vastness and superiority. Here it is an authentic spiritual experience. Your ignorance of this experience is not surprising.

Again, you're completely ignoring the other two definition YOU QUOTED.  Dodgy
Is that transparent intellectual dishonesty or honest attentional bias? I would think it would be hard to copy/paste something you're completely unaware of.
Again, for the umpteenth time, appreciation for nature is only humbling or awe inspiring. It is not "beyond the limits of possible experience", "beyond human knowledge", or "existing apart from the material universe".

An honest and humble person could acknowledge that their use of the word transcendent is obviously limited. But that's just it. You're too busy defending your ego to even countenance the other definition...much less make any attempt to justify that you experience them. You might as well just be parroting secular "spiritual" dogma.  Angel

No..Since I obviously don't believe in God, transcendence has no meaning beyond the first two definitions, which are as surpassing and excelling the human ego. That is the essence of the spiritual. There is no other definition for me that makes sense. I don't need your theistic fairy tales to make sense of my experience.
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