Atheists can be spiritual too

[Leigha]

CC, Syne, MR and SS have me wondering after reading all of your replies - when does a spiritual view, become one of faith? I consider myself to be a spiritual person, but because I also believe in God, it requires faith. Faith is the belief of things not yet seen, and not objectively provable. Yet, I believe.

For those here who consider themselves ''spiritual,'' do you feel that it stems from emotions/feelings/imagination, or are you employing faith in order to gain a spiritual perspective? (for your own life) Are the two concepts interconnected?

[Magical Realist]

CC, Syne, MR and SS have me wondering after reading all of your replies - when does a spiritual view, become one of faith? I consider myself to be a spiritual person, but because I also believe in God, it requires faith. Faith is the belief of things not yet seen, and not objectively provable. Yet, I believe.

For those here who consider themselves ''spiritual,'' do you feel that it stems from emotions/feelings/imagination, or are you employing faith in order to gain a spiritual perspective? (for your own life) Are the two concepts interconnected?

Speaking for myself, faith plays little to no role in my spiritual experience. My experience of meaningfulness is totally contained by my senses and my own intuition, being a deep connection I have with the universe and the world at large. That's what drove me away from religion, in that it was all a mental thing inside my own head and one only sustained thru a deliberate act of believing in something that wasn't real to me. God never became realer to me than a concept in my head. I needed to find peace and joy in my real life experience and in what surrounded me everyday. Faith just doesn't do that for me. The advantage of finding in the universe your own deeper meaning is that it can be immediately seen and heard and felt, and it immediately impacts your life in a thousand different ways. God otoh is an abstract contrivance of one's own imagination and never enters into one's experience as an impactful reality. That's how it is for me at least.

[Leigha]

CC, Syne, MR and SS have me wondering after reading all of your replies - when does a spiritual view, become one of faith? I consider myself to be a spiritual person, but because I also believe in God, it requires faith. Faith is the belief of things not yet seen, and not objectively provable. Yet, I believe.

For those here who consider themselves ''spiritual,'' do you feel that it stems from emotions/feelings/imagination, or are you employing faith in order to gain a spiritual perspective? (for your own life) Are the two concepts interconnected?

Speaking for myself, faith plays little to no role in my spiritual experience. My experience of meaningfulness is totally contained by my senses and my own intuition, being a deep connection I have with the universe and the world at large. That's what drove me away from religion, in that it was all a mental thing inside my own head and one only sustained thru a deliberate act of believing in something that wasn't real to me. God never became realer to me than a concept in my head. I needed to find peace and joy in my real life experience and in what surrounded me everyday. Faith just doesn't do that for me. The advantage of finding in the universe your own deeper meaning is that it can be immediately seen and heard and felt, and it immediately impacts your life in a thousand different ways. God otoh is an abstract contrivance of one's own imagination and never enters into one's experience as an impactful reality. That's how it is for me at least.

This is interesting, MR. Do you meditate at all? I find meditation added into my prayer life, to be really helpful in terms of staying centered, and being mindful.

[Magical Realist]

CC, Syne, MR and SS have me wondering after reading all of your replies - when does a spiritual view, become one of faith? I consider myself to be a spiritual person, but because I also believe in God, it requires faith. Faith is the belief of things not yet seen, and not objectively provable. Yet, I believe.

For those here who consider themselves ''spiritual,'' do you feel that it stems from emotions/feelings/imagination, or are you employing faith in order to gain a spiritual perspective? (for your own life) Are the two concepts interconnected?

Speaking for myself, faith plays little to no role in my spiritual experience. My experience of meaningfulness is totally contained by my senses and my own intuition, being a deep connection I have with the universe and the world at large. That's what drove me away from religion, in that it was all a mental thing inside my own head and one only sustained thru a deliberate act of believing in something that wasn't real to me. God never became realer to me than a concept in my head. I needed to find peace and joy in my real life experience and in what surrounded me everyday. Faith just doesn't do that for me. The advantage of finding in the universe your own deeper meaning is that it can be immediately seen and heard and felt, and it immediately impacts your life in a thousand different ways. God otoh is an abstract contrivance of one's own imagination and never enters into one's experience as an impactful reality. That's how it is for me at least.

This is interesting, MR. Do you meditate at all? I find meditation added into my prayer life, to be really helpful in terms of staying centered, and being mindful.

I've practiced mindfulness before, but it tends to only make me sleepy. I stay grounded thru sensory experiences like scented candles and nature and good poetry and inspiring quotes and art and writing and music.

---

Leigha can I ask why you used to not believe in God? What changed for you?

In case it wasn't obvious, I do incorporate Taoism and Zen Buddhism into my spiritual experience as philosophies conducive to my soul journey. I'm still on a winding and unpredictable path, but it seems to be the right one for me.

“Every answer you ever need lies within your own silence..”
― Ian Tucker, Your Simple Path - Find Happiness in every step.

“Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them; that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like.”
― Lao Tzu

[C C]

For those here who consider themselves ''spiritual,'' do you feel that it stems from emotions/feelings/imagination, or are you employing faith in order to gain a spiritual perspective? (for your own life) Are the two concepts interconnected?

I wonder that faith would be necessary if there's no risk in one's particular species of "spirituality". Or consequences one way or the other are not even applicable (kind of like whoever it is that gets awed and teary-eyed from our being stardust).

Reflexively or initially, it's difficult to fathom any "risk" to bare spirituality in general. But...

"Sacred" is sometimes affiliated with spirituality, although usually in a religious context. That might be one area where a spiritual orientation(?) could inadvertently trigger a negative reaction, from even a fellow "member" of the same view judging that something one said or did or didn't do was irreverent, profane, or blasphemous. Even if no god was involved, there might be some "agency" or principle that was disrespected (there are those who can get excited over the rules of a mere game or formal dress party being violated).

Secular and religious authoritarian governments could be an exception, where the slightest hint of being mistakenly perceived as religious or belonging to a rival and unsanctioned set of beliefs could garner the wrath of secret police, local inquisition, or vigilante witch-hunters. Or talking about or ceremonially doing something "spiritual" when the wrong kind of mentally unstable person was nearby.

So it's not absolute by any means that even the flimsiest spirituality is safe unless it's completely introspective with no outward sign to the world.

EDIT: Ridicule should be included in "risk". If one felt "spiritual" about the extraterrestrial affairs in UFO religions without actually being a religious member, then I suppose it would require a degree of faith to endure the derision.

[C C]

Leigha can I ask why you used to not believe in God? What changed for you?

Perhaps I have my memory wires even more crossed-up by insomnia than usual, but somewhere in the past I got the impression that Wegs was a believer (of sorts), then went to the rival team... So that this would be a return?

Anyway, if that's a total botch on my part (and probably is), the "rebound" is still another sub-topic that might be explored. Though in a branch to itself -- not interfering from this point on with the question to Leigha and her answer, that it's leaping off from.

I'm not sure Nancey Murphy qualifies as an example of "rebound", but she's as fully knowledgeable as Shermer asserts she is below and answers his question straightforwardly... (there's no link for this discussion because it's no longer on the web).

MICHAEL SHERMER: "Nancey, you know everything I know about this stuff, why do you believe and I don't?"

NANCEY MURPHY: "It really comes down to my own personal experience, growing up in a Christian home, praying and finding that there seemed to be somebody at the other listening and responding and talking. So it's a matter of, basically it comes down to a matter of religious experience. And, but as you're pointing out, if you hold to a belief position, then you set out to make it rational, that is you set out to find reasons for your belief, but I think my basic motivation for looking for the reasons for -- rather than the reasons against -- really comes to that personal history."

Could it be uncomplicatedly summed it up as realizing what one's "authentic identity" is and sticking to it? Just as those who leave for good have discovered who they "really are" or who they're comfortable being, on a different path? (With the latter, possibly a lot easier to say sayonara for good if one never found much purpose in it or never felt truly a part of the outfit to begin with. Had bad experiences, or was regularly jarred by the potential hypocrisy slash inconsistencies, or felt more fear and angst than godliness, or simply found the whole process boring -- already had an underlying degree of skepticism from childhood.)

And some theists -- as well as "spiritual" non-theists -- do apparently have profoundly significant personal experiences. (Since late teen years I apparently started scaring those off with some kind of agnostic radioactivity, except for prolonged strings of weird coincidences, which don't even qualify as private revelations or enlightenments. Plus, weird "sleep paralysis" entities surely don't count as uplifting residents in either theistic or conventional spiritualism territory.)

I'm surprised that Murphy above didn't emphasize the experiences of fellowship in a Church or religious community itself. She surely was on the side of the good experiences department there, too, to go all the way up to becoming a professor. And that may be why, if she never left temporarily due to a period of doubt.

Those who feel something missing, or become depressed, or shell-shocked afterwards -- especially if alienated from family or friends, or find their new "irreligious comrades" to be just as potentially "messed up" on the human level as the old ones --- would have significant motivation to return. They might heavily need the community to restore or maintain what they consider their true selves.

OTOH, the monastic personality (or "mad poet in the attic") might be perfectly fine with embracing belief in God once again while ditching the direct fellowship and formal ceremonies. Replacing that with reading the body of arguments and apologist literature (not necessarily of Christian or Abrahamic ilk, just any proposal or defense of a philosophical God). Emily Dickinson would certainly qualify as an example of the monastic personality, but everything else discussed here would be wholly up for grabs in terms of being applicable at all. She was definitely reading some interesting stuff and exchanging mountains of engaging slow-mail that was eventually destroyed, though, whatever the sources.

[Syne]

CC, Syne, MR and SS have me wondering after reading all of your replies - when does a spiritual view, become one of faith? I consider myself to be a spiritual person, but because I also believe in God, it requires faith. Faith is the belief of things not yet seen, and not objectively provable. Yet, I believe.

Real spirituality differs, from the "spiritual" that CC, MR, & SS define as simple awe, connection, etc. (that everyone experiences at some point, even without any pretense at spirituality) or even meditation that any self-indulgent weenie can do, by requiring things their self-gratifying notions do not. Like the humility to accept that you and your intellect are not the sole arbiters of truth and the faith in something greater, through which we become greater ourselves.

But I must admit that I don't normally think of it in terms of faith...and not because it's simply tainted by religion, which is the only reason MR can't admit his belief in ghosts is faith in the unknown. I think of it in terms of taking a god's eye perspective...which is the definition of objective.

[Leigha]

CC, Syne, MR and SS have me wondering after reading all of your replies - when does a spiritual view, become one of faith? I consider myself to be a spiritual person, but because I also believe in God, it requires faith. Faith is the belief of things not yet seen, and not objectively provable. Yet, I believe.

For those here who consider themselves ''spiritual,'' do you feel that it stems from emotions/feelings/imagination, or are you employing faith in order to gain a spiritual perspective? (for your own life) Are the two concepts interconnected?

Speaking for myself, faith plays little to no role in my spiritual experience. My experience of meaningfulness is totally contained by my senses and my own intuition, being a deep connection I have with the universe and the world at large. That's what drove me away from religion, in that it was all a mental thing inside my own head and one only sustained thru a deliberate act of believing in something that wasn't real to me. God never became realer to me than a concept in my head. I needed to find peace and joy in my real life experience and in what surrounded me everyday. Faith just doesn't do that for me. The advantage of finding in the universe your own deeper meaning is that it can be immediately seen and heard and felt, and it immediately impacts your life in a thousand different ways. God otoh is an abstract contrivance of one's own imagination and never enters into one's experience as an impactful reality. That's how it is for me at least.

This is interesting, MR. Do you meditate at all? I find meditation added into my prayer life, to be really helpful in terms of staying centered, and being mindful.

I've practiced mindfulness before, but it tends to only make me sleepy. I stay grounded thru sensory experiences like scented candles and nature and good poetry and inspiring quotes and art and writing and music.

---

Leigha can I ask why you used to not believe in God? What changed for you?

In case it wasn't obvious, I do incorporate Taoism and Zen Buddhism into my spiritual experience as philosophies conducive to my soul journey. I'm still on a winding and unpredictable path, but it seems to be the right one for me.

“Every answer you ever need lies within your own silence..”
― Ian Tucker, Your Simple Path - Find Happiness in every step.

“Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them; that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like.”
― Lao Tzu

The path is always winding...and that's a good thing. I think many people believe that faith, hope, enlightenment, spirituality, etc must have a set destination in mind, but that is the wrong way of thinking, imo. For we are always growing, learning, and changing ...we are always battling many voices from outsiders against our own internal voice - so the path should twist and turn. I think the path itself is the end game.

To answer your question, my ''departure'' from faith was really a gradual ''slow fade,'' I'd say. It took probably two years, to really just lose touch with anything and everything spiritual in my life. I stopped praying, stopped attending church services, stopped ''turning'' to God with my problems. I'd call it an indifference to all things spiritual and ''godly.'' I went through some things, and felt an emptiness that grew into an ache. Like a dull ache. I missed the religiosity that once filled my life, but knew that I didn't want to go back to ''religion.'' I missed the rituals, traditions and community that I had within my church, yet...I knew that isn't what spirituality is truly about. At least for me. I stayed indifferent, and dabbled in Buddhism and even explored Islam. This on and off desire to remain indifferent, yet become a seeker went on for a few years. But, during that time, I identified as an atheist, for I honestly didn't feel a calling to believe in a deity, and like I said, felt a blah indifference towards the concept, to be honest. I wasn't bitter or angry, just felt a nothingness when it came to the idea that a god might exist.

But, then one day, something happened...an experience that really couldn't be explained in a material way. That led me back to exploring what once was my faith in my life, and I came back to believing in God. A personal God, who I believe cares for me ...for all. It isn't something I could prove to you, similar to how you try to find ways to objectively prove that paranormal activity is a thing. lol But, God is real to me, and I find great comfort and sustenance in my prayer life, now. 

No more religion. Just God. That is my ''truth'' ...and my spiritual path. 

CC, good memory. 

---

CC, Syne, MR and SS have me wondering after reading all of your replies - when does a spiritual view, become one of faith? I consider myself to be a spiritual person, but because I also believe in God, it requires faith. Faith is the belief of things not yet seen, and not objectively provable. Yet, I believe.

Real spirituality differs, from the "spiritual" that CC, MR, & SS define as simple awe, connection, etc. (that everyone experiences at some point, even without any pretense at spirituality) or even meditation that any self-indulgent weenie can do, by requiring things their self-gratifying notions do not. Like the humility to accept that you and your intellect are not the sole arbiters of truth and the faith in something greater, through which we become greater ourselves.

But I must admit that I don't normally think of it in terms of faith...and not because it's simply tainted by religion, which is the only reason MR can't admit his belief in ghosts is faith in the unknown. I think of it in terms of taking a god's eye perspective...which is the definition of objective.

lol ''self indulgent weenie"  

I agree with your way of thinking, in that we are not the sole arbiters of truth. I mean, on some level, we all have our own value system that may or may not be acceptable to others' value systems, but you don't need to be ''spiritual'' to develop a code of ethics, really. 

You know, going through my own faith ''journey'' so to speak, I'd say that faith isn't at all connected to religion for me, anymore. I'm grateful that I broke away from the trappings of religion, so that I could see God in a different light. So, that I could live a life without believing in God, as well. My life wasn't ''bad,'' per se, but it lacked something. That something is different for all of us, I guess...but if I'm honest, I think we all have a yearning for a truth that can't be seen or fully understood. Spirituality isn't a feel good concept, although it can be rewarding. It is more than that, and it fosters a purposeful life...however that may look for the individual.

[Magical Realist]

But, then one day, something happened...an experience that really couldn't be explained in a material way.

I've had certain synchronicities in my life that convince me there is cosmic guidance in my life. Things that just worked out amazingly well for me and without my planning. Maybe there is a higher mind or destiny that orchestrates our life experiences. But at the same time I have to acknowledge the tragedies of other's lives. It's hard to square belief in an overseeing guidance with the sheer random tragedy of other people's lives. Family of five dies in head-on collision with drunk driver. Things like that. So for now I choose to live in the mystery. Random tragedy and miraculous guidance are both real possibilities in life. The storm AND the rainbow. The challenge is to accept both when they happen, as part of the paradox of our existence.

“Let go of certainty. The opposite isn't uncertainty. It's openness, curiosity and a willingness to embrace paradox, rather than choose up sides. The ultimate challenge is to accept ourselves exactly as we are, but never stop trying to learn and grow.”
― Tony Schwartz

[Leigha]

I hear you, MR. I think we all have such unique lives and experiences within our lives, that bring us to where we are, either to believe or not believe. To be spiritual or not. For me, I also wrestled with wondering how a ''loving'' God could allow so much tragedy in the world. But, coming back to faith, I now realize that I had unrealistic expectations of God, or perhaps I viewed God as unloving back then, simply because the world isn't a utopia. So, if God permits tragedy, and life isn't a utopia, does this mean that God isn't loving? For me, I feel that God helps me through the tragedies of life. God works for my good, despite the external circumstances that befall me. That is a sign of love, to me.

I tend to believe in free will, so this concept of spirituality and my belief in an ''omnipotent and omniscient'' deity, works for me.