To forgive or hold a grudge? Is there a third option?

#21
(Apr 25, 2019 05:33 AM)Leigha Wrote: But the purpose of this thread really wasn't to debate whether I should have let that friendship go or not, but rather if forgiveness isn't always a necessary option, and could we find a new way to deal with a falling out?


The analogy of how public institutions and enterprises deal with misconduct is still applicable -- even if relocated to misrepresentation or hatchet job instead of disclosure of secrets. When the statutory machine works right, those consequences are grounded in formal or systematic response rather than emotional personal grudges. Similarly, there's no reason why an individual's response in everyday matters can't be based on a similar rational assessment of the situation, and the penalty (severing of a friendship) outputted by that rather than hurtful feelings, revenge, enmity, etc.

###
Reply
#22
(Apr 25, 2019 06:01 AM)C C Wrote:
(Apr 25, 2019 05:33 AM)Leigha Wrote: But the purpose of this thread really wasn't to debate whether I should have let that friendship go or not, but rather if forgiveness isn't always a necessary option, and could we find a new way to deal with a falling out?


The analogy of how public institutions and enterprises deal with misconduct is still applicable -- even if relocated to misrepresentation or hatchet job instead of disclosure of secrets. When the statutory machine works right, those consequences are grounded in formal or systematic response rather than emotional personal grudges. Similarly, there's no reason why an individual's response in everyday matters can't be based on a similar rational assessment of the situation, and the penalty (severing of a friendship) outputted by that rather than hurtful feelings, revenge, enmity, etc.

###

Very true. It honestly wasn't an emotional decision, just a firm one.

Personally, I believe the stockades should make a come back.  

Semi serious.  Big Grin
Reply
#23
(Apr 25, 2019 05:33 AM)Leigha Wrote: We teach people how to treat us. It would be enabling at this point, to keep a ''friend'' like this around. 

But the purpose of this thread really wasn't to debate whether I should have let that friendship go or not, but rather if forgiveness isn't always a necessary option, and could we find a new way to deal with a falling out?

"letting go" is the opposite to the addiction to the behavior pattern of holding on to something that creates negative emotion.
when the addiction has normalised a level of acceptable abuse, the addiction becomes normalised to create a certain amount of abuse to normalise the relationship.

this is a co-dependent abusive relationship.
they are extremely common in many varying degrees.

ironically co-dependency in emotional independence is seen as an expected norm in all cultures.

you can not be deemed to be independent unless you are emotionally co-dependent... (the fallacy while the super ego controls the ego to create an ego that is accepted by the outside world)
Reply
#24
(Apr 23, 2019 05:26 AM)Leigha Wrote: I think so. About two years ago, a friend of mine broke a confidence with me. I shared a private matter with him, and he shared it with others. He apologized for doing so, and I accepted it. We moved on. Then, he did it a second time, when I shared another private matter. I decided to just go ''no contact,'' and blocked his phone number, and email. No warnings, no more discussions. Didn't tell him how I felt, like I had done the first time. I heard through a mutual friend that he has been ''desperate'' to correct this mistake. He believes that he deserves a second chance to make things right with our friendship. We were friends for about seven years. 

The thing is, I don't really have any animosity towards him. It's not a matter of forgiving him, or holding onto a grudge. I wish him the best, but simply don't see him as a friend, anymore. I don't wish to open up the lines of communication, and it's really as simple as that.

What are your thoughts on forgiveness? Do you see it as an either/or kind of dilemma? Or do you feel that a third option is needed, when we just don't feel like forgiveness is really ours to even give. Perhaps that's how I could say it best. I'd appreciate any real life examples you'd like to share, if you're willing.

Years ago, I read a book called "People Will Talk" by John Whitfield. I think you’d enjoy it.

The thing that stings the most is that we learn our value through the betrayer’s eyes. When this happens you should try to determine how much they actually value the relationship and their intent. Were they using it as a weapon, seeking their fifteen minutes of fame, or sincerely concerned and seeking additional advice on how to help you?

Information is power, but was once you give up that information, you lose it. There are some who use gossip to belittle others, in order to feel better about themselves. Don’t associate with people like this. Unfortunately, there are many who take pleasure in other people’s pain, i.e. epicaricacy.

However, gossip isn’t always a bad thing.

The Science of Gossip and Four Ways to Make it Less Toxic

Quote:Make it useful

Although there is plenty of evidence that we dislike those who gossip frequently, this depends on the perceived motive of the gossiper. If the listener feels that you are attempting to help the group when you share the gossip, they can be much more forgiving. For example, in a study where a gossiper shared information about a cheating student, they were only disliked where they were sharing this information for selfish reasons. Where they expressed the gossip in a way which focused on fairness for the whole student group, it was the cheater who was disliked, not the gossiper.

Ensuring that gossip is useful can also help to alleviate the negative feelings gossipers have when they share gossip. In a study where a participant saw another person cheating, it made the participant uncomfortable knowing about the cheat. But they felt better when they were able to warn the other participants about the cheat’s bad behaviour.

Do not tell lies

Gossip which is not true does not offer the same social learning benefits as that which is true. False gossip risks conflict and upset to the target of gossip but this action is not justified by benefits to the group, so the gossiper may feel worse about spreading information they know to be false that they usually would when communicating gossip. The gossiper also risks being “found out” by their listeners. People can employ sophisticated strategies – including comparing the information they gain to existing knowledge – to protect themselves from being influenced by malicious gossip.

As far as forgiveness goes, someone said to me once that everybody deserves a second chance. Some deserve even more than that and a few rare ones deserve as many chances given as the number of their trespasses.
Reply
#25
(Apr 27, 2019 02:45 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote:
(Apr 23, 2019 05:26 AM)Leigha Wrote: I think so. About two years ago, a friend of mine broke a confidence with me. I shared a private matter with him, and he shared it with others. He apologized for doing so, and I accepted it. We moved on. Then, he did it a second time, when I shared another private matter. I decided to just go ''no contact,'' and blocked his phone number, and email. No warnings, no more discussions. Didn't tell him how I felt, like I had done the first time. I heard through a mutual friend that he has been ''desperate'' to correct this mistake. He believes that he deserves a second chance to make things right with our friendship. We were friends for about seven years. 

The thing is, I don't really have any animosity towards him. It's not a matter of forgiving him, or holding onto a grudge. I wish him the best, but simply don't see him as a friend, anymore. I don't wish to open up the lines of communication, and it's really as simple as that.

What are your thoughts on forgiveness? Do you see it as an either/or kind of dilemma? Or do you feel that a third option is needed, when we just don't feel like forgiveness is really ours to even give. Perhaps that's how I could say it best. I'd appreciate any real life examples you'd like to share, if you're willing.

Years ago, I read a book called "People Will Talk" by John Whitfield. I think you’d enjoy it.

The thing that stings the most is that we learn our value through the betrayer’s eyes. When this happens you should try to determine how much they actually value the relationship and their intent. Were they using it as a weapon, seeking their fifteen minutes of fame, or sincerely concerned and seeking additional advice on how to help you?

Information is power, but was once you give up that information, you lose it. There are some who use gossip to belittle others, in order to feel better about themselves. Don’t associate with people like this. Unfortunately, there are many who take pleasure in other people’s pain, i.e. epicaricacy.

However, gossip isn’t always a bad thing.

The Science of Gossip and Four Ways to Make it Less Toxic

Quote:Make it useful

Although there is plenty of evidence that we dislike those who gossip frequently, this depends on the perceived motive of the gossiper. If the listener feels that you are attempting to help the group when you share the gossip, they can be much more forgiving. For example, in a study where a gossiper shared information about a cheating student, they were only disliked where they were sharing this information for selfish reasons. Where they expressed the gossip in a way which focused on fairness for the whole student group, it was the cheater who was disliked, not the gossiper.

Ensuring that gossip is useful can also help to alleviate the negative feelings gossipers have when they share gossip. In a study where a participant saw another person cheating, it made the participant uncomfortable knowing about the cheat. But they felt better when they were able to warn the other participants about the cheat’s bad behaviour.

Do not tell lies

Gossip which is not true does not offer the same social learning benefits as that which is true. False gossip risks conflict and upset to the target of gossip but this action is not justified by benefits to the group, so the gossiper may feel worse about spreading information they know to be false that they usually would when communicating gossip. The gossiper also risks being “found out” by their listeners. People can employ sophisticated strategies – including comparing the information they gain to existing knowledge – to protect themselves from being influenced by malicious gossip.

As far as forgiveness goes, someone said to me once that everybody deserves a second chance. Some deserve even more than that and a few rare ones deserve as many chances given as the number of their trespasses.

I'll check that book out, thanks! I think for me, when it comes to any betrayers such as this guy, I give another chance. But, it doesn't feel that way, as in who am I to ''give someone another chance?'' I'm not the judge and jury of the situation, I'm not perfect. We're all flawed. Instead, I view it as if someone wants to treat you with kindness, he/she will. If someone doesn't value/respect you, he/she will show that in his/her actions. It's that simple, and perhaps we make it complicated. More complicated than it needs to be. And there could be some truth in that we don't like feeling we don't know how to read people. Being fooled/duped isn't fun, and there was some of that in there, with this situation. Fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me, kind of thing. A third time? Then, you're a glutton for punishment.  Tongue
Reply
#26
(Apr 28, 2019 04:28 AM)Leigha Wrote: I'm not the judge and jury of the situation, I'm not perfect. We're all flawed. Instead, I view it as if someone wants to treat you with kindness, he/she will. If someone doesn't value/respect you, he/she will show that in his/her actions. It's that simple, and perhaps we make it complicated. More complicated than it needs to be. And there could be some truth in that we don't like feeling we don't know how to read people. Being fooled/duped isn't fun, and there was some of that in there, with this situation. Fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me, kind of thing. A third time? Then, you're a glutton for punishment.  Tongue

Anger, Resentment, Betrayal—Oh My!

I love that tag line and this portion caught my eye…
One day, when I had experienced what, from my perspective, felt like a friend’s betrayal, I suddenly got a spiritual tap on the shoulder telling me to listen. When I turned inward to listen deeply to my heart’s wisdom, I understood a much bigger story line than the immediate betrayal. My friend had her reasons which, from her perspective, made her happiness more important than my unhappiness. If I had walked her path, I might have come to the same conclusion.

But I’m walking my path. And right now my feelings are hurt by your embracing your happiness at my expense.  Ah. Therein lies, the judgment, the wrong-doing. When I add the tagline, at my expense, I imply that you knew I would feel hurt and chose to make yourself happy anyway.
Therein lies the rub. I wouldn’t have come to the same conclusion and that is what makes forgiveness so difficult. It’s something that we wouldn’t even contemplate doing, but at the same time, like you said, we are not perfect, and we have been graced with forgiveness at one time or another. 

Resentment is a word with lots of definitions.

A vengeful, petty-minded state of being that does not so much want what others have (although that is partly it) as want others to not have what they have, which sounds more like plain ole jealousy.

A feeling of anger or displeasure stemming from belief that one has been wronged by others or betrayed; indignation.

Ressentiment

Nietzsche's criticism of slave morality is that it leads to anger, denial, jealousy, epicaricacy, and resentment, but all of this relies on a promised afterlife—heaven and hell. You hope that someone else will punish them and make them aware of how much pain they’ve caused you.

He uses the concepts of bad and evil. The masters look down on the slaves as merely 'bad' (sucks to be you). The slaves, however, see the masters as 'evil'.

And then there's this line:

Quote:Let man be afraid of woman when she loves; then she makes every sacrifice, and every other thing is without value to her. Let a man be afraid of a woman when she hates; for at the bottom of his soul a man is merely evil, but woman is bad there. Whom does woman hate the most?—Thus spoke the iron to the magnet: 'I hate you the most because you attract, but are not strong enough to attract me to you.' The happiness of a man says: I will. The happiness of a woman says: he wills.

Women focus love and on being loved, which makes them attached to their culture. You can compare this to the slave morality, which of course, he despised. In fact, I think that Nietzschean resentment is what’s driving the PC culture and radical feminism. 

When you’re betrayed, you do have a few more choices—holding a grudge, revenge, forgiveness, or judgement.

I think that Nietzsche, if you read the last page of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" carefully, is trying to tell us that it is our judgement—our perception that matters the most. So, yes, you are the judge and the jury of the situation.

That just might be your third option you were looking for. How are you going to view this situation? Are you going to view it as an indignation—that this person is 'bad' and doesn’t value your relationship?

Nietzsche’s last sin was pity—looking down on others. "Do I strive for happiness? I strive for my work!" His work was self-overcoming. And like C C said, I’ve been betrayed numerous times, as well, but I’ve also made plenty of mistakes.

Forgiveness isn’t a sign of weakness or that you’re a fool. It’s an emotion created from your assessment of the situation, but the opposite…will linger, hurting only you. It’s easier once you acknowledge your own sinful nature. Like you said, nobody is perfect.

I’m actually experiencing something very similar, but maybe a little more extreme, and as with almost everything…it’s easier said than done.

I might go with a big loud "DON'T FUCK WITH ME!"...if I get the chance. Wink

Good luck, little Missy!
Reply
#27
When offended I generally behave(d) so unreasonably that the issue of forgiveness shifts to the other party. As SS has already noted - most of my friends are birds.
Reply
#28
(Apr 27, 2019 02:45 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote:
(Apr 23, 2019 05:26 AM)Leigha Wrote: I think so. About two years ago, a friend of mine broke a confidence with me. I shared a private matter with him, and he shared it with others. He apologized for doing so, and I accepted it. We moved on. Then, he did it a second time, when I shared another private matter. I decided to just go ''no contact,'' and blocked his phone number, and email. No warnings, no more discussions. Didn't tell him how I felt, like I had done the first time. I heard through a mutual friend that he has been ''desperate'' to correct this mistake. He believes that he deserves a second chance to make things right with our friendship. We were friends for about seven years. 

The thing is, I don't really have any animosity towards him. It's not a matter of forgiving him, or holding onto a grudge. I wish him the best, but simply don't see him as a friend, anymore. I don't wish to open up the lines of communication, and it's really as simple as that.

What are your thoughts on forgiveness? Do you see it as an either/or kind of dilemma? Or do you feel that a third option is needed, when we just don't feel like forgiveness is really ours to even give. Perhaps that's how I could say it best. I'd appreciate any real life examples you'd like to share, if you're willing.

Years ago, I read a book called "People Will Talk" by John Whitfield. I think you’d enjoy it.

The thing that stings the most is that we learn our value through the betrayer’s eyes. When this happens you should try to determine how much they actually value the relationship and their intent. Were they using it as a weapon, seeking their fifteen minutes of fame, or sincerely concerned and seeking additional advice on how to help you?

Information is power, but was once you give up that information, you lose it. There are some who use gossip to belittle others, in order to feel better about themselves. Don’t associate with people like this. Unfortunately, there are many who take pleasure in other people’s pain, i.e. epicaricacy.

However, gossip isn’t always a bad thing.

The Science of Gossip and Four Ways to Make it Less Toxic

Quote:Make it useful

Although there is plenty of evidence that we dislike those who gossip frequently, this depends on the perceived motive of the gossiper. If the listener feels that you are attempting to help the group when you share the gossip, they can be much more forgiving. For example, in a study where a gossiper shared information about a cheating student, they were only disliked where they were sharing this information for selfish reasons. Where they expressed the gossip in a way which focused on fairness for the whole student group, it was the cheater who was disliked, not the gossiper.

Ensuring that gossip is useful can also help to alleviate the negative feelings gossipers have when they share gossip. In a study where a participant saw another person cheating, it made the participant uncomfortable knowing about the cheat. But they felt better when they were able to warn the other participants about the cheat’s bad behaviour.

Do not tell lies

Gossip which is not true does not offer the same social learning benefits as that which is true. False gossip risks conflict and upset to the target of gossip but this action is not justified by benefits to the group, so the gossiper may feel worse about spreading information they know to be false that they usually would when communicating gossip. The gossiper also risks being “found out” by their listeners. People can employ sophisticated strategies – including comparing the information they gain to existing knowledge – to protect themselves from being influenced by malicious gossip.

As far as forgiveness goes, someone said to me once that everybody deserves a second chance. Some deserve even more than that and a few rare ones deserve as many chances given as the number of their trespasses.

Quote:The thing that stings the most is that we learn our value through the betrayer’s eyes. When this happens you should try to determine how much they actually value the relationship and their intent. Were they using it as a weapon

you remind me of a best friend who crossed me on several occasions.
the betrayal was the assertion of breaking agreements and then seeking to leverage me to profit from in some way.
luckily i never held a grudge against them(& we have had many unforgettable life defining moments) because i had been shown by someone the way they had lied and broken their word with me many many years prior.


as leigh says, i hold no negative position towards them. i always hope they are doing well and having good luck.
however, what i dont know is if they might do the same thing to me again so i simply avoid the opportunity.
you cant force people to change regardless of what type of emotional co-dependency concepts you visualize around the relationship.


roughly 50% of all marriages get divorced, so that clearly shows it is a common thing to have people seek a life path in different directions.


holding negative energy/hate etc toward such things only poisons ones own life.

(Apr 28, 2019 04:28 AM)Leigha Wrote:
(Apr 27, 2019 02:45 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote:
(Apr 23, 2019 05:26 AM)Leigha Wrote: I think so. About two years ago, a friend of mine broke a confidence with me. I shared a private matter with him, and he shared it with others. He apologized for doing so, and I accepted it. We moved on. Then, he did it a second time, when I shared another private matter. I decided to just go ''no contact,'' and blocked his phone number, and email. No warnings, no more discussions. Didn't tell him how I felt, like I had done the first time. I heard through a mutual friend that he has been ''desperate'' to correct this mistake. He believes that he deserves a second chance to make things right with our friendship. We were friends for about seven years. 

The thing is, I don't really have any animosity towards him. It's not a matter of forgiving him, or holding onto a grudge. I wish him the best, but simply don't see him as a friend, anymore. I don't wish to open up the lines of communication, and it's really as simple as that.

What are your thoughts on forgiveness? Do you see it as an either/or kind of dilemma? Or do you feel that a third option is needed, when we just don't feel like forgiveness is really ours to even give. Perhaps that's how I could say it best. I'd appreciate any real life examples you'd like to share, if you're willing.

Years ago, I read a book called "People Will Talk" by John Whitfield. I think you’d enjoy it.

The thing that stings the most is that we learn our value through the betrayer’s eyes. When this happens you should try to determine how much they actually value the relationship and their intent. Were they using it as a weapon, seeking their fifteen minutes of fame, or sincerely concerned and seeking additional advice on how to help you?

Information is power, but was once you give up that information, you lose it. There are some who use gossip to belittle others, in order to feel better about themselves. Don’t associate with people like this. Unfortunately, there are many who take pleasure in other people’s pain, i.e. epicaricacy.

However, gossip isn’t always a bad thing.

The Science of Gossip and Four Ways to Make it Less Toxic

Quote:Make it useful

Although there is plenty of evidence that we dislike those who gossip frequently, this depends on the perceived motive of the gossiper. If the listener feels that you are attempting to help the group when you share the gossip, they can be much more forgiving. For example, in a study where a gossiper shared information about a cheating student, they were only disliked where they were sharing this information for selfish reasons. Where they expressed the gossip in a way which focused on fairness for the whole student group, it was the cheater who was disliked, not the gossiper.

Ensuring that gossip is useful can also help to alleviate the negative feelings gossipers have when they share gossip. In a study where a participant saw another person cheating, it made the participant uncomfortable knowing about the cheat. But they felt better when they were able to warn the other participants about the cheat’s bad behaviour.

Do not tell lies

Gossip which is not true does not offer the same social learning benefits as that which is true. False gossip risks conflict and upset to the target of gossip but this action is not justified by benefits to the group, so the gossiper may feel worse about spreading information they know to be false that they usually would when communicating gossip. The gossiper also risks being “found out” by their listeners. People can employ sophisticated strategies – including comparing the information they gain to existing knowledge – to protect themselves from being influenced by malicious gossip.

As far as forgiveness goes, someone said to me once that everybody deserves a second chance. Some deserve even more than that and a few rare ones deserve as many chances given as the number of their trespasses.

I'll check that book out, thanks! I think for me, when it comes to any betrayers such as this guy, I give another chance. But, it doesn't feel that way, as in who am I to ''give someone another chance?'' I'm not the judge and jury of the situation, I'm not perfect. We're all flawed. Instead, I view it as if someone wants to treat you with kindness, he/she will. If someone doesn't value/respect you, he/she will show that in his/her actions. It's that simple, and perhaps we make it complicated. More complicated than it needs to be. And there could be some truth in that we don't like feeling we don't know how to read people. Being fooled/duped isn't fun, and there was some of that in there, with this situation. Fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me, kind of thing. A third time? Then, you're a glutton for punishment.  Tongue

Quote:I'm not the judge and jury of the situation,

identifying the illusion of power & control
thats a HUGE leap forward !

thats really awesome

Quote:A third time? Then, you're a glutton for punishment.

i was recently confronted by a persons actions whom i care for very much, yet am not close to on a personal level.
i can only say that i value my experience in being able to draw a compromise between my own feelings and the interaction by being able to reduce the negative impact for all partys without surrendering my own sense of self respect that would normalise and enable their potential issue.
i spent some weeks in deep thought on the subject.

such things though while on the surface may appear to be a simply rude exchange of a push or a pull
underneath the connections and motivations and impacts can be vastly more influential to other people in ways that may not seem consciously apparent.

being able to post event set aside my own ego and spend some days concentrating on what was best for that person and their immediate connections and situation allowed me deeper clarity into the over all cause and effect of what how & why and what might happen.
Reply
#29
(May 14, 2019 01:35 AM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: you remind me of a best friend who crossed me on several occasions.
the betrayal was the assertion of breaking agreements and then seeking to leverage me to profit from in some way.
luckily i never held a grudge against them(& we have had many unforgettable life defining moments) because i had been shown by someone the way they had lied and broken their word with me many many years prior.

Well, I try my best to never lie and I don't think I've ever crossed anyone. I've never broken an engagement, much less an agreement. I'm always on time and I can't think of any occasion where I've ever profited from someone's misfortune, nor would I want to. I'm a giver, not a taker, but for some damn reason, the two always coexist. Two takers won't last, and believe it or not, two givers work awkwardly together. I have a best friend, though, that I've known for years. I'm helping her with her daughter's wedding. Somehow, two givers have managed to find a balance. She's appreciative and reciprocates and vice versa.

Quote:identifying the illusion of power & control
thats a HUGE leap forward !

You can control your own perception.
Reply
#30
(May 14, 2019 02:11 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote:
(May 14, 2019 01:35 AM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: you remind me of a best friend who crossed me on several occasions.
the betrayal was the assertion of breaking agreements and then seeking to leverage me to profit from in some way.
luckily i never held a grudge against them(& we have had many unforgettable life defining moments) because i had been shown by someone the way they had lied and broken their word with me many many years prior.

Well, I try my best to never lie and I don't think I've ever crossed anyone. I've never broken an engagement, much less an agreement. I'm always on time and I can't think of any occasion where I've ever profited from someone's misfortune, nor would I want to. I'm a giver, not a taker, but for some damn reason, the two always coexist. Two takers won't last, and believe it or not, two givers work awkwardly together. I have a best friend, though, that I've known for years. I'm helping her with her daughter's wedding. Somehow, two givers have managed to find a balance. She's appreciative and reciprocates and vice versa.

Quote:identifying the illusion of power & control
thats a HUGE leap forward !

You can control your own perception.

Quote:Two takers won't last,

watched that many times
Quote:and believe it or not, two givers work awkwardly together.

when 1 or both are not aware of the nature of what they need to give via what they need to revieve from the giving... then yes
thats about 80% of all relationship fails outside of basic selfish personal manipulation.


Quote:Somehow, two givers have managed to find a balance. She's appreciative and reciprocates and vice versa.

when nature acts by default
however, when drives seek to engage for change when there is no fundamental comprehension of the nature of self fulfillment, then the givers cross tracks for often accelerating opposite paths.

(May 14, 2019 02:11 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote:
RainbowUnicorn Wrote:identifying the illusion of power & control
thats a HUGE leap forward !

You can control your own perception.

controlling your own perception does not prevent another from striking you in the face with their fist


controlling another persons perception can make them not wish to strike you in the face with their fist

comprehending that you do not have the power & control of others perceptions and actions allows you clarity to focus on aspects that become innate positive aspects of self fulfillment
regardless of those who may still decide the only way they maintain their mental illness called happiness is by striking you in the face with their fist.


violence is the failure of reason
the failure to comprehend one is not in control of other people is a lack of reasoning

lack of reason drives most domestic violence/relationship issues.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)