To forgive or hold a grudge? Is there a third option?

#11
Depending on the degree of betrayal and the length and depth of friendship, they might not even warrant a second chance. But assuming they do, one second change is sufficient. Anyone who repeats behavior they've been told is unacceptable cannot be written off as simply human nature in general, but it's apparently in their particular nature to betray trust. After that, you either quit telling them sensitive info (relegating them to acquaintance) or excise them for your life.

There may be legitimate hard feelings about the breach of trust, but as with any bad experience, you move on. Grudges help no one. And too much forgiveness just enables their bad behavior.
Reply
#12
You: Can you keep a secret?
Friend: Why?
You: Need to tell you something
Friend: I’ll try my best
You: I’m _________

a) running away to meet someone I met on the internet
b) being physically abused by my parents
c) having sex with my teacher/priest/scout leader
d) the one the police are looking for
e) having urges to kill someone
f) screwing our other friend’s bf/gf
g) thinking of killing myself
h) an addict
i) hooking at night
j) in need of an abortion

and on and on. Without knowing exactly what Leigha’s secret was, it is impossible to pass judgement on her confidante. The only thing I can speculate on is the 2nd opportunity because it may be that the outcome of the first betrayal was actually good and she was hoping for more of the same, idk. Have to reveal a secret? Go seek out someone sworn to secrecy like a doctor, lawyer, notary, counsellor, even a teacher or religious leader if inclined. A good friend should not allow you to be harmed or do the harming.
Reply
#13
(Apr 23, 2019 01:07 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: . . . I once divulged a friend’s secret I was supposed to keep to myself. When it happened I said to myself that I’d made a big mistake. Sure enough word got out and my friend (still is) confronted me. Along with an apology I added those famous words, “Why did you tell me? I’m human”. I learned from that experience and if someone wants to tell me a secret I say “I don’t want to hear it” or “What are you telling me for”. So simple and easy to do. Let somebody else make the mistake. So if you have a secret to tell, say it to your dog and avoid telling humans altogether.


In terms of chatty acquaintances, workmates, etc... That's often been my disposition or feeling -- regardless of whether uttered out loud or not. "Let me out of here if deeply personal or classified material is going to be divulged." All the worse if the anxiety-plagued person lasering the red-dot on my forehead later on isn't even the one who casually disclosed the info, but further up or down on the chain of effects and consequences ladder.

There are paid professionals for revealing top-notch private secrets to, who are bound to protective standards.

###
Reply
#14
(Apr 24, 2019 07:15 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Friend: I’ll try my best

That looks like a straw man of the OP.
Reply
#15
(Apr 24, 2019 08:14 PM)C C Wrote:
(Apr 23, 2019 01:07 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: . . . I once divulged a friend’s secret I was supposed to keep to myself. When it happened I said to myself that I’d made a big mistake. Sure enough word got out and my friend (still is) confronted me. Along with an apology I added those famous words, “Why did you tell me? I’m human”. I learned from that experience and if someone wants to tell me a secret I say “I don’t want to hear it” or “What are you telling me for”. So simple and easy to do. Let somebody else make the mistake. So if you have a secret to tell, say it to your dog and avoid telling humans altogether.


In terms of chatty acquaintances, workmates, etc... That's often been my disposition or feeling -- regardless of whether uttered out loud or not. "Let me out of here if deeply personal or classified material is going to be divulged." All the worse if the anxiety-plagued person lasering the red-dot on my forehead later on isn't even the one who casually disclosed the info, but further up or down on the chain of effects and consequences ladder.

There are paid professionals for revealing top-notch private secrets to, who are bound to protective standards.

###

in my younger wild days when i would be out all weekend, staying at a different persons apartment each weekend, sleeping on floors & couches(mostly floors)
chasing the party scene etc...
also living in a shared apartments where you expected to see people sleeping on the sofa every saturday & sunday morning.
it was all part of the legend of the weekend by what state or disorientation you might find someone in sleeping in a corner or on the sofa
it was not uncommon for me to have others confide in me about their personal anxiety's about sexual relationships.
at work it was not uncommon either.


i never felt any need to share those encounters, even when it was someone cheating on their partner with someone else's best friend or such like.
such things go on all the time.
on the occasion i heard of someone engaging in theft or violent behavior, i would just mentally place them on my "to be avoided list".


what i learnt after several years was.
Leigha ...

there are varying degrees of how people break other peoples trust.
however, as many different degrees of trust that most espouse to their being, there are only a very small number of motivators behind the action.
most of those stemming from an internal lack of of self esteem.
The deep rooted personal insecurity that drives most of it is normalized in different formats in social culture.

a large majority of people put forth their moral judgment prior to the breaking of someones trust as a form of self license.
they then seek to reinforce this as a form of self justification in social circles
as you may be well aware.


self development issues which have leanings on things inside personal relationships only arise on sporadic moments when the person seeks to manage some issue they have that rubs against their personal insecurity.
(as you may know) which makes it a bit harder to determine the nature and severity of what type of moral judgment they apply to their own self worth(being able to be trusted).


ironically, betraying of peoples trust is normalized as excusable and socially expected by many cultures.
"im your best friend you have to tel me everything" etc etc... "im having sex with you, there should not be any secrets between us" etc etc...
"how do you expect me to trust you if you dont tell me everything i ask you, your not being honest" etc etc
there are many ways people normalize the psychological manipulation to try and get someone to betray the trust of another for personal gain.


roughly 50% of people expect this as normal expected behavior.
i liken the the situation to the idea of having sex in public.
while it may be a thrill to many as a once off occasion, if it is normalised so every time you have sex, you end up in the middle of the main street with everyone watching.
eventually it does serious psychological damage to around 95% of all people.
Reply
#16
(Apr 24, 2019 10:42 PM)Syne Wrote:
(Apr 24, 2019 07:15 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Friend: I’ll try my best

That looks like a straw man of the OP.

Wasn’t intended as such. It’s supposed to represent an answer that is either ignored or misinterpreted by the enquirer. There are times when someone is going to tell you the secret no matter how you answer the “can you keep a secret” question. Just wanted to raise doubt, the friend may not have committed to silence but is accused of breaching the trust anyway. Kudos though, for recognizing I was up to something. Big Grin
Reply
#17
(Apr 25, 2019 12:35 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote:
(Apr 24, 2019 10:42 PM)Syne Wrote:
(Apr 24, 2019 07:15 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Friend: I’ll try my best

That looks like a straw man of the OP.

Wasn’t intended as such. It’s supposed to represent an answer that is either ignored or misinterpreted by the enquirer. There are times when someone is going to tell you the secret no matter how you answer the “can you keep a secret” question. Just wanted to raise doubt, the friend may not have committed to silence but is accused of breaching the trust anyway. Kudos though, for recognizing I was up to something. Big Grin

lol
you remind me of some people i have met who forget who they have told the gossip to and change key aspects of the story with different people to make it seem more morally confrontational to that group of people.
meanwhile they didnt know that i have heard the various different versions of the fake event they have cooked up.
mostly built on the back of some factual semi insignificant event.
it is funny, but also very sad to see how truely lost such gossips are.
Reply
#18
lol There was no secret. Rolleyes There is an implied code of confidence between good friends, at least I think so. If someone tells me something personal, I'm not going to gossip about it, and distort it to make that person look bad. I'm not sure why he felt the need to do that, yet he apologized the first time. Then, he betrayed another secret...err...confidence, and at this point, meh. It's not about forgiveness at this point. I don't have a grudge, but as the OP states...it's a third option - just let the situation go, and move on.

(Apr 24, 2019 08:14 PM)C C Wrote:
(Apr 23, 2019 01:07 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: . . . I once divulged a friend’s secret I was supposed to keep to myself. When it happened I said to myself that I’d made a big mistake. Sure enough word got out and my friend (still is) confronted me. Along with an apology I added those famous words, “Why did you tell me? I’m human”. I learned from that experience and if someone wants to tell me a secret I say “I don’t want to hear it” or “What are you telling me for”. So simple and easy to do. Let somebody else make the mistake. So if you have a secret to tell, say it to your dog and avoid telling humans altogether.


In terms of chatty acquaintances, workmates, etc... That's often been my disposition or feeling -- regardless of whether uttered out loud or not. "Let me out of here if deeply personal or classified material is going to be divulged." All the worse if the anxiety-plagued person lasering the red-dot on my forehead later on isn't even the one who casually disclosed the info, but further up or down on the chain of effects and consequences ladder.

There are paid professionals for revealing top-notch private secrets to, who are bound to protective standards.

###

But this wasn't the case. He was a good friend. Do you share personal things with close friends? If they share it with others, and distort what you've told them, would that offend you? You can say no. lol But, it offended me.  Blush

(Apr 24, 2019 07:15 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: You: Can you keep a secret?
Friend: Why?
You: Need to tell you something
Friend: I’ll try my best
You: I’m _________

a) running away to meet someone I met on the internet
b) being physically abused by my parents
c) having sex with my teacher/priest/scout leader
d) the one the police are looking for
e) having urges to kill someone
f) screwing our other friend’s bf/gf
g) thinking of killing myself
h) an addict
i) hooking at night
j) in need of an abortion

and on and on. Without knowing exactly what Leigha’s secret was, it is impossible to pass judgement on her confidante. The only thing I can speculate on is the 2nd opportunity because it may be that the outcome of the first betrayal was actually good and she was hoping for more of the same, idk. Have to reveal a secret? Go seek out someone sworn to secrecy like a doctor, lawyer, notary, counsellor, even a teacher or religious leader if inclined. A good friend should not allow you to be harmed or do the harming.
Again, there was no secret haha!

Have you never been betrayed? I'm amazed that I might be the only person on this site who has been betrayed by a good friend?  Huh

(Apr 25, 2019 12:25 AM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote:
(Apr 24, 2019 08:14 PM)C C Wrote:
(Apr 23, 2019 01:07 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: . . . I once divulged a friend’s secret I was supposed to keep to myself. When it happened I said to myself that I’d made a big mistake. Sure enough word got out and my friend (still is) confronted me. Along with an apology I added those famous words, “Why did you tell me? I’m human”. I learned from that experience and if someone wants to tell me a secret I say “I don’t want to hear it” or “What are you telling me for”. So simple and easy to do. Let somebody else make the mistake. So if you have a secret to tell, say it to your dog and avoid telling humans altogether.


In terms of chatty acquaintances, workmates, etc... That's often been my disposition or feeling -- regardless of whether uttered out loud or not. "Let me out of here if deeply personal or classified material is going to be divulged." All the worse if the anxiety-plagued person lasering the red-dot on my forehead later on isn't even the one who casually disclosed the info, but further up or down on the chain of effects and consequences ladder.

There are paid professionals for revealing top-notch private secrets to, who are bound to protective standards.

###

in my younger wild days when i would be out all weekend, staying at a different persons apartment each weekend, sleeping on floors & couches(mostly floors)
chasing the party scene etc...
also living in a shared apartments where you expected to see people sleeping on the sofa every saturday & sunday morning.
it was all part of the legend of the weekend by what state or disorientation you might find someone in sleeping in a corner or on the sofa
it was not uncommon for me to have others confide in me about their personal anxiety's about sexual relationships.
at work it was not uncommon either.


i never felt any need to share those encounters, even when it was someone cheating on their partner with someone else's best friend or such like.
such things go on all the time.
on the occasion i heard of someone engaging in theft or violent behavior, i would just mentally place them on my "to be avoided list".


what i learnt after several years was.
Leigha ...

there are varying degrees of how people break other peoples trust.
however, as many different degrees of trust that most espouse to their being, there are only a very small number of motivators behind the action.
most of those stemming from an internal lack of of self esteem.
The deep rooted personal insecurity that drives most of it is normalized in different formats in social culture.

a large majority of people put forth their moral judgment prior to the breaking of someones trust as a form of self license.
they then seek to reinforce this as a form of self justification in social circles
as you may be well aware.


self development issues which have leanings on things inside personal relationships only arise on sporadic moments when the person seeks to manage some issue they have that rubs against their personal insecurity.
(as you may know) which makes it a bit harder to determine the nature and severity of what type of moral judgment they apply to their own self worth(being able to be trusted).


ironically, betraying of peoples trust is normalized as excusable and socially expected by many cultures.
"im your best friend you have to tel me everything" etc etc... "im having sex with you, there should not be any secrets between us" etc etc...
"how do you expect me to trust you if you dont tell me everything i ask you, your not being honest" etc etc
there are many ways people normalize the psychological manipulation to try and get someone to betray the trust of another for personal gain.


roughly 50% of people expect this as normal expected behavior.
i liken the the situation to the idea of having sex in public.
while it may be a thrill to many as a once off occasion, if it is normalised so every time you have sex, you end up in the middle of the main street with everyone watching.
eventually it does serious psychological damage to around 95% of all people.
Oh my gosh, finally someone gets me! This is a great post, especially your insight about his self esteem. He has always struggled with low self esteem. Not that he has ever said this, but mutual friends and me can just tell. I know that he regrets how he treated our friendship, and me. 

I really just wanted to share that example, to see if others believe in a third option beyond the norm of forgiveness vs forgiveness. To me, I do forgive him, if that even applies here. But, we can forgive from afar.

(Apr 24, 2019 01:53 AM)Syne Wrote: Depending on the degree of betrayal and the length and depth of friendship, they might not even warrant a second chance. But assuming they do, one second change is sufficient. Anyone who repeats behavior they've been told is unacceptable cannot be written off as simply human nature in general, but it's apparently in their particular nature to betray trust. After that, you either quit telling them sensitive info (relegating them to acquaintance) or excise them for your life.

There may be legitimate hard feelings about the breach of trust, but as with any bad experience, you move on. Grudges help no one. And too much forgiveness just enables their bad behavior.

Yesss! Very much agree. I believe in second chances, which I gave. To do the very same thing again pretty much, just shows as you say, that it's a character flaw. And, we all have them. But, if a friendship matters to me, I'd likely work on the flaws that are detouring it.
Reply
#19
(Apr 25, 2019 04:18 AM)Leigha Wrote:
(Apr 24, 2019 08:14 PM)C C Wrote:
(Apr 23, 2019 01:07 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: . . . I once divulged a friend’s secret I was supposed to keep to myself. When it happened I said to myself that I’d made a big mistake. Sure enough word got out and my friend (still is) confronted me. Along with an apology I added those famous words, “Why did you tell me? I’m human”. I learned from that experience and if someone wants to tell me a secret I say “I don’t want to hear it” or “What are you telling me for”. So simple and easy to do. Let somebody else make the mistake. So if you have a secret to tell, say it to your dog and avoid telling humans altogether.

In terms of chatty acquaintances, workmates, etc... That's often been my disposition or feeling -- regardless of whether uttered out loud or not. "Let me out of here if deeply personal or classified material is going to be divulged." All the worse if the anxiety-plagued person lasering the red-dot on my forehead later on isn't even the one who casually disclosed the info, but further up or down on the chain of effects and consequences ladder.

There are paid professionals for revealing top-notch private secrets to, who are bound to protective standards.

But this wasn't the case. He was a good friend. Do you share personal things with close friends? If they share it with others, and distort what you've told them, would that offend you? You can say no. lol But, it offended me.  Blush

I've encountered distortions of things said by both me and others my whole life, as served up by the whole gamut from relatives (family politics) to friends, fellow students, neighbors, coworkers, acquaintances, etc.

IOW, it's so commonplace that such is perhaps why "private matter" in the OP got construed as "deep secret" or whatever in the course of the thread. That it had to be a violation of trust out of the ordinary, or beyond the usual characteristics of gossipy interactions to garner a severing of relations with a long-time friend and ensuing ethical ruminations.

My reply to Zin purely pertained to his own account of a strained friendship, or rather his more general shift to "someone" at the end. Commiserative in the sense of my feeling the same sense of dread when generic "somebody" wants to tell me a secret that they'll later get anxious about. Though accordingly I left out the specific context or mention of "friends" -- arguably indeed different territory at times, depending upon the degree of bond.

###
Reply
#20
(Apr 25, 2019 05:24 AM)C C Wrote:
(Apr 25, 2019 04:18 AM)Leigha Wrote:
(Apr 24, 2019 08:14 PM)C C Wrote:
(Apr 23, 2019 01:07 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: . . . I once divulged a friend’s secret I was supposed to keep to myself. When it happened I said to myself that I’d made a big mistake. Sure enough word got out and my friend (still is) confronted me. Along with an apology I added those famous words, “Why did you tell me? I’m human”. I learned from that experience and if someone wants to tell me a secret I say “I don’t want to hear it” or “What are you telling me for”. So simple and easy to do. Let somebody else make the mistake. So if you have a secret to tell, say it to your dog and avoid telling humans altogether.

In terms of chatty acquaintances, workmates, etc... That's often been my disposition or feeling -- regardless of whether uttered out loud or not. "Let me out of here if deeply personal or classified material is going to be divulged." All the worse if the anxiety-plagued person lasering the red-dot on my forehead later on isn't even the one who casually disclosed the info, but further up or down on the chain of effects and consequences ladder.

There are paid professionals for revealing top-notch private secrets to, who are bound to protective standards.

But this wasn't the case. He was a good friend. Do you share personal things with close friends? If they share it with others, and distort what you've told them, would that offend you? You can say no. lol But, it offended me.  Blush

I've encountered distortions of things said by both me and others my whole life, as served up by the whole gamut from relatives (family politics) to friends, fellow students, neighbors, coworkers, acquaintances, etc.

IOW, it's so commonplace that such is perhaps why "private matter" in the OP got construed as "deep secret" or whatever in the course of the thread. That it had to be a violation out of the ordinary, or beyond the usual characteristics of gossipy interactions to garner a severing of relations with a long-time friend and ensuing ethical ruminations.

My reply to Zin purely pertained to his own account of a strained friendship, or rather his more general shift to "someone" at the end. Commiserative in the sense of my feeling the same sense of dread when generic "somebody" wants to tell me a secret that they'll later get anxious about. Though accordingly I left out the specific context or mention of "friends" -- arguably indeed different territory at times, depending upon the degree of bond.

###
Gotcha, okay, fair enough. Thanks for clarifying. I think what caused the rift was that he did it a second time. The first time, I didn't even let it stir within me, but the second time? Nah. We teach people how to treat us. It would be enabling at this point, to keep a ''friend'' like this around. 

But the purpose of this thread really wasn't to debate whether I should have let that friendship go or not, but rather if forgiveness isn't always a necessary option, and could we find a new way to deal with a falling out?
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)