Trump falsely accuses Ukraine of starting the war

[Syne]

Oh, now that your genetic fallacy failed, it's still not enough.

Spoiled children, who throw tantrums when they don't get everything they want, need discipline and tough love. Zelenskyy's demands will only lead to more war, but all Trump wants is peace. Again, leftists have become such bloodthirsty war hawks. Once upon a time, liberals would do anything for peace. I guess the militancy of people like antifa has finally metastasized to the core of their ideology.

The trust was that Zelenskyy would sign the minerals deal, as everyone expected. Instead, he wanted to push his luck, making more demands. Again, just looks at what one of his MPs has to say about him. Is a Ukrainian MP a Trumper too?

[Magical Realist]

Spoiled children, who throw tantrums when they don't get everything they want, need discipline and tough love.

Still with the spoiled child ad hom? Why? He's not a child. He's the courageous leader of a country being invaded by one of the most powerful nations on earth. Why shouldn't he ask for all he needs? I sure would. Anybody would. If Trump didn't want to give him anything he shouldn't made the rare earth minerals deal to begin with. It's like Trump suddenly realized he had to hold up his side of the deal and chickened out. Then HE was the one who threw a tantrum, yelling and turning red-faced and saying Zelensky held no cards over and over. Which apparently isn't true at all.

Zelenskyy's demands will only lead to more war, but all Trump wants is peace.

If Trump really wanted peace he would've set up a meeting with BOTH Putin and Zelensky. That's how real peace deals are made. He didn't do that. He bragged that he could stop the war but is only making a mess of things. He disrespected Zelensky before the whole world and his own people by saying he'd meet with Putin alone. Like Ukraine would have no say in the matter. That was just stupid. If you are not at the table, then you are on the table. Trump has demonstrated that he has no friggin clue how to bring peace to this conflict and instead let his fragile ego get in the way of any serious negotiations. The world watches his infantile temperament and bumbling incompetence in horror. And all the while Putin just chuckles quietly to himself.

[Yazata]

Lutnick replied: “No, so we were 40 minutes before the cameras came in, and 45 minutes before the meltdown, and the fact was, Zelensky never stopped asking for, you know — ‘I will give no concessions. They have got to leave my land. I want reparations of $300 billion. And I want the United States to give me security guarantees while they’re at war with Russia.'”
- https://www.dailywire.com/news/commerce-...guarantees

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[confused2]

I have to go with what I heard which was "Does the deal include ANY security guarantees?". Everybody knows what Zelensky wants but the sticking point was that the deal Trump offered was to hand over $500B in return for NOTHING on paper. Any Ferengi will tell you "If it ain't in the deal - it ain't in the deal." - the mojo of the world's greatest deal-maker is to convince people there are things in a deal that aren't there - that's how Trump got rich and why Zelensky wouldn't sign.

[Syne]

Lutnick replied: “No, so we were 40 minutes before the cameras came in, and 45 minutes before the meltdown, and the fact was, Zelensky never stopped asking for, you know — ‘I will give no concessions. They have got to leave my land. I want reparations of $300 billion. And I want the United States to give me security guarantees while they’re at war with Russia.'”
- https://www.dailywire.com/news/commerce-...guarantees

[Image: GlB4pMRWYAArh96?format=jpg&name=small]

Exactly.

[Magical Realist]

It's hard to stop the tram when it's already occupied 20% of your country and shows no signs of stopping and 3 million of your people are under occupation. At that point it's a matter of just blowing the damn thing up.

[Syne]

Sunk cost fallacy.

[confused2]

I'm fairly sure Zelensky isn't the first person to be screwed in the Oval Office.
The Republicans of today seem closer to a cult than a 'normal' political party. Trump isn't widely viewed as 'honest' and as such he's poorly qualified to take on the role of honest broker. Asking for $500B up front would certainly be an unusual starting point for an honest broker. In fairness Zelensky may have no choices and no cards ($500B neatly mojo'd away there). He does need someone prepared to talk to Putin - preferably not someone actively seeking deals with Russia.

[Syne]

Zelenskyy was the one who didn't negotiate in good faith. He apparently agreed enough to get the meeting, all set up for a deal signing afterwards. But then he decided to renegotiate the deal in front of the cameras. That's bad faith.

Trump wasn't asking for $500 billion. He was actually offering US investment in Ukraine (which would include US boots on the ground, which is a de facto security guarantee) in exchange for a percent of the profit from mining it bankrolled.

All the adults realize the simple fact that there is no peace without making some kind of deal with Russia. Unless Europe wants to step up and actually wage war. No? Nothing?