Family killed in cliff crash likely intentional

#41
(Apr 4, 2018 04:11 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: I've observed that my own abnormal solitary lifestyle, which is enough to concern my VA nurse practitioner, would be totally normal if I lived in say the wilds of Alaska, where people tend to be loners and go for long months closed up inside without talking to other people. There appears to be a context where any currently diagnosed "mental pathology" can be seen as normal or at least quite practical.


Yah, Richard Proenneke would have been a great example of the contemporary "mountain man" or anarcho-primitivist, if I had thought of it. Everybody has seen that 1968 film footage of him, during a PBS fund-raising event at one time or another. Due to the context, he's treated as an icon in his post-death legacy rather than receiving bullying pejoratives like "hermit-misfit" or whatever. Even an outdoorsman and working vagabond like Christopher McCandles has people from around the world making a pilgrimage to that bus in Alaska where he starved to death.

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#42
(Apr 4, 2018 01:24 PM)stryder Wrote: I get a bit miffed about the term "Homophobic"

So do I. I don't like it mainly because it intentionally tries to misuse psychiatric terminology ('phobia' in this case) for political ends. That's just fake science.

I agree that many/most heterosexuals do feel some slight repulsion regarding their own participation in homosexual sex. But I don't think that we can say that most of the population suffers from a clinical phobia. My hypothesis is that it's just a natural part of our animal sex drive, something that orients us not only towards individuals that potentially are reproductively compatible sex partners but away from those that aren't. (It's probably why beastiality is repulsive to most people.) A population where individuals mate preferentially with those who are most likely to produce viable offspring will have a selective advantage over a population that humps everything in sight.

Quote:Homophobia is often slurred like a derogative

It's an attempt to reduce social opposition to psychiatric illness. One could just as easily dismiss MR's obvious hatred of people like me as "dextrophobia", fear of the (political) right. It's hugely emotional and ever since Trump's election here in the United States, it seems to have become irrational and increasingly bizarre.

Quote:however those that wish harm on others for their differences are just plain and simple haters.  It would be nice if one day the difference between the terms and viewpoints were better understood, so you know that homophobia isn't a bad thing, hate is.

I agree, except that it isn't going to be as easy as that. Everyone has things they approve of and things they don't. Most of us don't approve of murder and abusing children, and typically agree on taking action to suppress those things. Is that desire to suppress "hate"? If not, why not? If it's admirable to oppose some things, why is it "hate" to oppose other things? How is that line drawn?

There's lots of cultural variation on these things. We love and protect dogs, but there are countries where dogs are considered little more than vermin and have historically been eaten. We value freedom of religion but in most of the Middle East, apostasy (leaving one's religion) is a crime, sometimes punishable by death. We believe in free speech, but in most of the Middle East (and in Europe until comparatively recently) blasphemy was a serious crime and in some places a death penalty offense. The perceived and socially-sanctioned role of women is hugely variable by culture.

And here in the West, there have been tremendous changes in how many of those kind of things are conceived (or at least in how our ruling elites insist they be conceived) since the middle of the 20th century. Everything's in flux these days, so the problem of how to justify our moral intuitions becomes all the more pressing.
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#43
(Apr 4, 2018 05:49 PM)Yazata Wrote:
(Apr 4, 2018 01:24 PM)stryder Wrote: I get a bit miffed about the term "Homophobic"

So do I. I don't like it mainly because it intentionally tries to misuse psychiatric terminology ('phobia' in this case) for political ends. That's just fake science.

I agree that many/most heterosexuals do feel some slight repulsion regarding their own participation in homosexual sex. But I don't think that we can say that most of the population suffers from a clinical phobia. My hypothesis is that it's just a natural part of our animal sex drive, something that orients us not only towards individuals that potentially are reproductively compatible sex partners but away from those that aren't. (It's probably why beastiality is repulsive to most people.) A population where individuals mate preferentially with those who are most likely to produce viable offspring will have a selective advantage over a population that humps everything in sight.

Homophobia isn't the repulsion that comes from viewing a same sexed person as a potential sex partner. It is viewing and treating an LGBT person as less an individual person and more as a type or class that merits moral condemnation and a hypercritical response to anything they do or say. That's how you can tell you're homophobic. Are you reacting negatively to gay people all the time? Are you always spontaneously coming up with reasons to put them down? Yeah...you hate gay people.


Quote:Syne: "Considering the much higher rate of suicide among LGBT, the adoption of all these children by lesbians may have contributed to their deaths."

If you don't consider that statement offensive and hateful, then you are homophobic.

"Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear, and is often related to religious beliefs."---- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia
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#44
(Apr 4, 2018 01:24 PM)stryder Wrote: I get a bit miffed about the term "Homophobic", mainly because I would suggest that technically I'm homophobic being heterosexual.  To me however homophobia is no different than someone having arachnophobia or vertigo (agoraphobia).  
I mean you can joke that when I see some hairy legs it makes my skin crawl, but to be honest I can talk to someone who's homosexual with no issues, I can be in the same room or the same car, that's not the issue.  The concerns I had when younger (not so prevalent now) was if one made a pass at me or tried to touch me in a manner that I found inappropriate.  Those were the concerns since I'm not attracted to men (beyond a platonic relationships.)

This doesn't mean I hate people that are that way incline, it doesn't mean I think they should be killed or injured or not have the lifestyle that suits them, it's just about my own personal preferences and the concerns that surround that.

Homophobia is often slurred like a derogative, however those that wish harm on others for their differences are just plain and simple haters.  It would be nice if one day the difference between the terms and viewpoints were better understood, so you know that homophobia isn't a bad thing, hate is.
Yeah, critical or adverse to are far cries from hating and wishing harm, but the modern left finds it far too politically expedient to conflate the two...catching just about every heterosexual (except the virtue-signalers) in the process and reducing the significance of such accusations.
(Apr 4, 2018 05:49 PM)Yazata Wrote:
(Apr 4, 2018 01:24 PM)stryder Wrote: I get a bit miffed about the term "Homophobic"

So do I. I don't like it mainly because it intentionally tries to misuse psychiatric terminology ('phobia' in this case) for political ends. That's just fake science.

I agree that many/most heterosexuals do feel some slight repulsion regarding their own participation in homosexual sex. But I don't think that we can say that most of the population suffers from a clinical phobia. My hypothesis is that it's just a natural part of our animal sex drive, something that orients us not only towards individuals that potentially are reproductively compatible sex partners but away from those that aren't. (It's probably why beastiality is repulsive to most people.) A population where individuals mate preferentially with those who are most likely to produce viable offspring will have a selective advantage over a population that humps everything in sight.
Yeah, there are significant evolutionary reasons for a basic aversion.
Quote:
Quote:Homophobia is often slurred like a derogative

It's an attempt to reduce social opposition to psychiatric illness. One could just as easily dismiss MR's obvious hatred of people like me as "dextrophobia", fear of the (political) right. It's hugely emotional and ever since Trump's election here in the United States, it seems to have become irrational and increasingly bizarre.
I learned a new word. Thanks Yaz.
Quote:
Quote:however those that wish harm on others for their differences are just plain and simple haters.  It would be nice if one day the difference between the terms and viewpoints were better understood, so you know that homophobia isn't a bad thing, hate is.

I agree, except that it isn't going to be as easy as that. Everyone has things they approve of and things they don't. Most of us don't approve of murder and abusing children, and typically agree on taking action to suppress those things. Is that desire to suppress "hate"? If not, why not? If it's admirable to oppose some things, why is it "hate" to oppose other things? How is that line drawn?
Well, inciting harm is already illegal, but it seems that the left wants social mob justice that supersedes law (not that they ever had much respect for law to begin with).
(Apr 4, 2018 04:58 PM)Yazata Wrote: I think that there's good reason to believe that the Mendocino coast crash was intentional. The California Highway Patrol increasingly think so.

The car had a 'black box' data recorder.  That indicates that the car had pulled off the highway at a dirt pull-off point above where it went off the cliff and was stopped there for a period. That's not unusual since travelers often do that in order to view and photograph the scenic coastline. But when the car was restarted, its driver reportedly stomped on the accelerator and steered towards the edge of the cliff.

The back-story is that one of the children in the 'family' had been going to a Washington state neighbor's house repeatedly complaining of hunger and asking for food. Then another of the children showed up at the neighbor's house begging for protection. The neighbor called Police who alerted state Child Protective Services. An investigation into possible child neglect or abuse was immediately opened on March 23. This sudden road trip to California began at about 8 AM on March 24 just hours after Police and Child Protective Services had first tried to contact the family in a welfare check the previous evening. The Police made two more subsequent visits, but the group was already gone.

It's now appearing that this wasn't the first time. They had pulled the kids from school in Minnesota and disppeared just a day after one of the women had plead guilty to child abuse allegations in that state for beating one of the girls. They resurfaced in Oregon where there was another child abuse case that prompted them to suddenly move to Washington State. Now this thing with Washington's Child Protective Services. It follows them around and a pattern starts to emerge.

So despite the facade of adopting kids from troubled backgrounds and giving them a loving home, the reality may have been less pleasant.  

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/818278...ighting-of
Yeah, I had read most of that. I wonder if the specter of "homophobia" in removing these kids from their custody had anything to do with their apparent inability to do so in an expedient manner...and subsequently save these children's lives.
(Apr 4, 2018 04:11 PM)Magical Realist Wrote:
(Apr 4, 2018 01:24 PM)stryder Wrote: I get a bit miffed about the term "Homophobic"

I suggest you acquaint yourself both with how the term homophobia is used nowadays as well as the many manifestations of it in our culture. This is a good overview of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia
"aversion" and "antipathy" are pretty far from "contempt" and "prejudice".
Stryder is talking about the same aversion in that definition.
Quote:
Quote:When the results of ignoring the large minority can be the deaths of 7 innocent people, including 6 children, it is immoral to willfully ignore the problem.

You're merely experiencing the natural exasperation of not being able to prevent a tragedy. That's part of living in a free world where people are allowed to move about freely and make their own decisions. Get used to it. We can't anticipate every incidence of mental breakdown or dysfunction in every family.
"Merely"? O_o
So you'll rail about law-abiding people being allowed to own AR-15s, but 6 innocent children are abused and killed and you say that's life, "get used to it"? O_o
Is it just that they were kids, that they were mostly black, or that you're an immoral hypocrite? O_o
(Apr 4, 2018 07:21 PM)Magical Realist Wrote:
(Apr 4, 2018 05:49 PM)Yazata Wrote:
(Apr 4, 2018 01:24 PM)stryder Wrote: I get a bit miffed about the term "Homophobic"

So do I. I don't like it mainly because it intentionally tries to misuse psychiatric terminology ('phobia' in this case) for political ends. That's just fake science.

I agree that many/most heterosexuals do feel some slight repulsion regarding their own participation in homosexual sex. But I don't think that we can say that most of the population suffers from a clinical phobia. My hypothesis is that it's just a natural part of our animal sex drive, something that orients us not only towards individuals that potentially are reproductively compatible sex partners but away from those that aren't. (It's probably why beastiality is repulsive to most people.) A population where individuals mate preferentially with those who are most likely to produce viable offspring will have a selective advantage over a population that humps everything in sight.

Homophobia isn't the repulsion that comes from viewing a same sexed person as a potential sex partner. It is viewing and treating an LGBT person as less an individual person and more as a type or class that merits moral condemnation and a hypercritical response to anything they do or say. That's how you can tell you're homophobic. Are you reacting negatively to gay people all the time? Are you always spontaneously coming up with reasons to put them down? Yeah...you hate gay people.
So moral condemnation of, say, prostitutes (a whole class of people) is a hateful phobia?
It couldn't be that they just don't like you? O_o
Quote:
Quote:Syne: "Considering the much higher rate of suicide among LGBT, the adoption of all these children by lesbians may have contributed to their deaths."

If you don't consider that statement offensive and hateful, then you are homophobic.

"Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear, and is often related to religious beliefs."---- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

Facts cannot be hateful. It is a fact that a higher rate of suicide "may have contributed" to a murder/suicide.
The problem seems to be the "range" of attitudes you presume to be inclusive of hate.
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#45
Quote:So moral condemnation of, say, prostitutes (a whole class of people) is a hateful phobia?
It couldn't be that they just don't like you? O_o

Duh yeah. "Moral condemnation of say prostitutes" is a hateful phobia. You have no idea about how these young girls are victimized by their pimps do you?

Quote:"Merely"? O_o
So you'll rail about law-abiding people being allowed to own AR-15s, but 6 innocent children are abused and killed and you say that's life, "get used to it"? O_o
Is it just that they were kids, that they were mostly black, or that you're an immoral hypocrite? O_o

Yeah...having an AR-15 serves no other purpose than to kill someone. It's not a huge leap of logic that owning one should motivate you to use it.

Quote:Facts cannot be hateful. It is a fact that a higher rate of suicide "may have contributed" to a murder/suicide.
The problem seems to be the "range" of attitudes you presume to be inclusive of hate.

You have no idea if a higher rate of suicide for LGBTs influenced their murder/suicide. There are too many other more determinative factors dealing with mental illness and family dysfunction to settle on that one explanation.
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#46
(Apr 4, 2018 10:19 PM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:So moral condemnation of, say, prostitutes (a whole class of people) is a hateful phobia?
It couldn't be that they just don't like you? O_o

Duh yeah. "Moral condemnation of say prostitutes" is a hateful phobia. You have no idea about how these young girls are victimized by their pimps do you?
Are you defending prostitution? O_o
You think its fine, even though you presume they are victimized? O_o
Quote:
Quote:"Merely"? O_o
So you'll rail about law-abiding people being allowed to own AR-15s, but 6 innocent children are abused and killed and you say that's life, "get used to it"? O_o
Is it just that they were kids, that they were mostly black, or that you're an immoral hypocrite? O_o

Yeah...having an AR-15 serves no other purpose than to kill someone. It's not a huge leap of logic that owning one should motivate you to use it.
No, only a killer has an AR-15 to kill someone. Everyone else has one for either sport or self-defense.
It is a huge lump of stupid to assume an inanimate object "should motivate" anyone to do anything at all.
Do you believe in demon-possession too? Rolleyes
Quote:
Quote:Facts cannot be hateful. It is a fact that a higher rate of suicide "may have contributed" to a murder/suicide.
The problem seems to be the "range" of attitudes you presume to be inclusive of hate.

You have no idea if a higher rate of suicide for LGBTs influenced their murder/suicide.
Do you really think suicide rate has nothing to do with suicide? Rolleyes
Quote:There are too many other more determinative factors dealing with mental illness and family dysfunction to settle on that one explanation.
I thought we already settled that suicide is caused by mental illness. The catalyst of family dysfunction (which is the fault of the parents) is just the trigger on a time bomb, and not itself causative. Any one of a hundred different triggers can set off the suicidal.
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#47
Quote:No, only a killer has an AR-15 to kill someone. Everyone else has one for either sport or self-defense.
It is a huge lump of stupid to assume an inanimate object "should motivate" anyone to do anything at all.

Since AR 15s are used for killing people. then having one motivates you to kill people. It's simple logic.

Quote:Are you defending prostitution? O_o
You think its fine, even though you presume they are victimized? O_o

Not morally condemning prostitutes isn't defending prostitution anymore than not morally condemning cancer patients is defending cancer.

Quote:Any one of a hundred different triggers can set off the suicidal.

Right dumbass. Any one of a hundred different causes other than being lesbian.
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#48
(Apr 5, 2018 02:18 AM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:No, only a killer has an AR-15 to kill someone. Everyone else has one for either sport or self-defense.
It is a huge lump of stupid to assume an inanimate object "should motivate" anyone to do anything at all.

Since AR 15s are used for killing people. then having one motivates you to kill people. It's simple logic.
The only way such an assertion makes any logical sense is if you, personally, are afraid of what you would do with a gun. That you already experience such motivations and fear that possession of a gun would allow you to act on those vile motivations. That is the ONLY way an inanimate object has anything to do with your motives and actions.
Luckily, most people are far more stable and responsible than you. Otherwise we would have 9,750,000 murders (3% of the population) every year in the US, since that's how many gun owners we have (and you're problem with gun ownership would solve itself, as they are arrested). Instead, we only have about 16,000 murders a year, which proves your irrational and superstitious nonsense either false or a severe reflection on your character.

So go ahead, keep telling us about what you would do if you owned a gun.
Quote:
Quote:Are you defending prostitution? O_o
You think its fine, even though you presume they are victimized? O_o

Not morally condemning prostitutes isn't defending prostitution anymore than not morally condemning cancer patients is defending cancer.
Why would you morally condemn cancer patients?! O_o
You seem to be ignorant of the fact that most people morally condemn others for their freely chosen actions. Hence condemning prostitutes is because they engage in prostitution. A cancer patient is not freely engaged in cancerous activity.
Quote:
Quote:Any one of a hundred different triggers can set off the suicidal.

Right dumbass. Any one of a hundred different causes other than being lesbian.
No one said lesbianism was the trigger for suicide, moron.
Only that LGBT have an empirically higher suicide rate than the general population and even concentration camp Jews. For the suicidal, triggers abound.
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#49
Quote:You seem to be ignorant of the fact that most people morally condemn others for their freely chosen actions. Hence condemning prostitutes is because they engage in prostitution.

God you're such a hateful and soulless man. It consoles me slightly that you will reap all the bad karma that comes from that sort of innate vileness.

Quote:No one said lesbianism was the trigger for suicide, moron.

We all know what you said liar. Here it is again in all of it's golden majesty:

"Considering the much higher rate of suicide among LGBT, the adoption of all these children by lesbians may have contributed to their deaths."
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#50
So I guess you don't want to keep telling us all about what you would do if you owned a gun.
Good, we'll consider you "simple logic" illiterate.
(Apr 5, 2018 05:16 AM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:You seem to be ignorant of the fact that most people morally condemn others for their freely chosen actions. Hence condemning prostitutes is because they engage in prostitution.

God you're such a hateful person. I consoles me that you will reap all the bad karma that comes from that sort of innate vileness.
So you're telling us you only condemn people for who they are? O_o
Quote:
Quote:No one said lesbianism was the trigger for suicide, moron.

We all know what you said liar. Here it is again in all of it's golden majesty:

"Considering the much higher rate of suicide among LGBT, the adoption of all these children by lesbians may have contributed to their deaths."

Where in that do you imagine anything about a trigger?
A higher rate of suicide does not define the specific trigger that tipped the scale into action in each case. Learn to read.
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