Are we a bit vague about teaching morality to children?

[confused2]

Some time ago I was following up the idea that fairness might be a concept that is common to most individuals of most species. I can't answer for why the larger seagull didn't try to steal from the smaller seagull or why they would take turns at something they both clearly enjoyed. There are species that are born to kill their siblings but they are few and far between - I can't answer for them either.

Fairness is your worst nightmare - if you had a conscience it is what your conscience would tell you to do. <- that isn't a personal attack - just an attempt at a definition.

[Syne]

That's the problem. "Fairness" does not have a clear and unambiguous moral meaning. Nor does "conscience". Both need a lot of exposition.

[confused2]

That's the problem. "Fairness" does not have a clear and unambiguous moral meaning.

If gulls do it and (probably) most of the animals in the zoo do it - it can't be that complicated. In fairness they probably have a trick way of doing it which doesn't require a conscience (do gulls have consciences?) or any form of moral judgement - if you have 'played fair' that is the be all and end all of civilized (and 'moral') behaviour (<-point for discussion?).

[Syne]

You seem to be assuming a definition of fairness that is not unambiguously universal.

fair
- in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate.
- without cheating or trying to achieve unjust advantage

What rules or standards? Without cheating what standard?

[confused2]

See new avatar. The big fluffy thing on the right is Junior A and the little fluffy thing on the left is Junior B. Junior A hatched about 7 days ago and Junior B hatched about 3 days ago. Junior A doesn't peck out Junior B's eyes because.. because of what? I did say I thought there was a trick to this... could it be that Junior A is treating Junior B as an extension of himself? I don't think that's what's going on but it's the best I can come up with at the moment. What rules... what standards? I have no idea - only that it seems to work. Maybe try thinking less.

[Syne]

So......instinct?

[confused2]

So......instinct?

Instinct covers any behaviour that isn't learned. Instinct tells Junior A not to treat Junior B as food (smell perhaps) - then as social birds they start on the social life they will lead as adults - which involves sharing. Sharing (anything) I think involves fairness - how much to share? Yes?

[C C]

Male chickens (roosters) that are raised up together fight less or not at all as adults. With the feral members of some predatory avian species that fly, though, there's still that impeding of or taking the food away from a smaller sibling in the nest; and the option of eventually crowding the weakling over the edge to its doom.

Why some animals eat their young
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/baby...d-mothers/

"Mock remembers watching a group of egret chicks peck their sibling to death, while their mother stood idly by, cleaning her feathers."

Kelp gulls, at least, seem to have little love or empathy for other animals. Over the last 15 years, they started eating the eyeballs of baby Cape fur seals that are alive. It's not just a new feeding behavior but one seemingly learned and circulated by observation among the rest. Once the baby seal is blinded, they start working as a group on the exposed underbelly and genitals. There are arguably precursors for this acquired habit, which could mean it's just a modification of innate tendencies. Pecking the jaws of beached porpoises and the back blubber of whale calves when they surface.

- - -

[Syne]

So......instinct?

Instinct covers any behaviour that isn't learned. Instinct tells Junior A not to treat Junior B as food (smell perhaps) - then as social birds they start on the social life they will lead as adults - which involves sharing. Sharing (anything) I think involves fairness - how much to share? Yes?

Morality is generally regarded as something that curtails baser instincts. And...the OP asked about "teaching morality". So learned behavior would seem to be the point here.

"Gulls are social creatures. Kind of like us, in fact. Most of the time, they act like they can’t stand each other. They squabble, they posture, they fight, they eat each other’s eggs… but deep down, they know they need each other. There’s an understanding among gulls, an uneasy peace that’s built on a strict code of status and seniority. The top gulls, usually the most mature, probably get the best real estate at the centre of the colony. That way, when the predators come by to do their plundering, the poor lower-status saps get eaten first.

But here’s the thing: with all that tension and rivalry, they know when to band together. When the eagles attack, or the foxes charge in, a disciplined white air force takes wing, diving, screeching, and shite-bombing all intruders like a well-oiled machine. Shock and awe.

So cooperate. Remember who your friends are. And don’t forget, when things get tough, you can always eat the neighbour’s children." - http://www.donenright.com/7-habits-highl...-seagulls/

So their instinct is mutual self-preservation...where the smaller ones are more useful as predator fodder to a species that eats just about anything (no real food scarcity). In terms of morality, sharing means very little unless it includes self-sacrifice...which doesn't happen in an abundant environment.

[RainbowUnicorn]

The 'we' is anyone - could be you or could be your neighbour or could be ... anyone.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41409983

US President Donald Trump's pick for Alabama's Senate race has lost the state's Republican primary to a firebrand Christian conservative.

Mr Moore is a populist former chief justice in the state, who rode to the voting booth on a horse named Sassy, and brandished a gun at a rally.

The news is likely to rattle Washington Republicans, including President Trump, who had confidently pitted Mr Strange against the party's anti-establishment wing.

just like iran with their religious leader running the country.
The church is the state.