Why free will & determinism are the same (Benardo Kastrup)

#1
C C Offline
I'll have to wait at least an hour to comment on it, to avoid the separate posts from being combined, by the system. (Long enough, with excessive structure, as it is.)
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(Dec 31, 2025 10:42 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: [...] Bernardo Kastrup says there is no such thing as "could've been." There is no difference between freewill and determinism. Everything came to be because that's what it was. It couldn't have been any other way because it couldn't have been anything other than what it was at the time.

ESSENTIA FOUNDATION (Bernardo Kastrup as guest)
https://youtu.be/y2eOtzEB8D8

VIDEO EXCERPTS: There is no external environment beyond the nature to impose choices on nature. What the nature chooses to do comes out of itself. Therefore it comes out of its being. It's a result of what it is. So nature wills what it must will, given what it is.

But it does make choices. It couldn't make different choices because it isn't different. Nature is what it is and not something else. It does make choices, but its choices are a direct consequence of what it is.

So from that perspective, what nature wills is what it must. What nature must is exactly what it wills. So there is no distinction at the level of nature between free will and determinism.

And that's why we can both say that you have free will because you are part of nature. And nature has free will.

But why does nature have free will? Because it's the same as determinism, and determinism is true. So by the same token, you could also say everything's deterministic.

Why? Because free will is true. But free will is the same thing as determinism. So everything is deterministic.

That was the point that I was trying to get across. Of course we all make choices. We are part of nature. We make choices every day, thousands of choices every day. Starting from whether you touch the ground with your left or your right foot the moment you step out of bed.

The idea of determinism does not deny the obvious empirical fact that we are always making choices. What it denies is the abstraction that we call 'the could have been' . I could have chosen differently.

Then I would say you could only have chosen differently if you were different, but you were what you were. Nature was what it was. So the 'could have been' is an abstraction. And I think it's a fantasy.

And it helps me in a sense that the opposite of determinism s a randomness, right? And as you put in your essay, that is not what we mean when we say I have free will.

You don't say it's random. No, you mean it is determined, but It is determined by what you prefer it to be determined by. Right? That's that what you like to think?

Yeah.

I want it to be determined by my wish to sit down here with Bernardo, made me sit here down with Bernardo. But then again, it is determined, right? It's not random.

So that's also where you run into philosophical problems. So I think analytically, your point is very clear...

Why free will & determinism are the same ... https://youtu.be/y2eOtzEB8D8

https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/y2eOtzEB8D8
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#2
Syne Offline
Same old, tired argument that explains away free will by claiming: "A man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills" - Schopenhauer
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#3
C C Offline
Ah-ha, the posts won't be able to combine now. To comment on what Kastrup seems to be saying in the excerpt...

(Dec 31, 2025 10:42 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: [...] Bernardo Kastrup says there is no such thing as "could've been." There is no difference between freewill and determinism. Everything came to be because that's what it was. It couldn't have been any other way because it couldn't have been anything other than what it was at the time.

I wouldn't say that Nature makes choices as he does (if the world is regulated by strict physical laws) -- it's not even intelligent like an ordinary animal, in that context.

But that is one way to put it when applied to humans. Our specific identity (like one's preferences and biases) is determining what we do. Not external puppet masters. Yet if we don't believe in free will, then that fatalism also prevents us from re-programming ourselves to different preferences (if the old ones are bad habits destroying our own lives and damaging others).

Conversely, if our identity was changed at the start (one was raised in a foster home or whatever), and consequently acquired different tendencies, then our life history would also consist of different events and decisions (we would choose matters differently). There would be a kind of like an identical twin replacing us, with its different mindset.

But as long as even the twin counterpart didn't pick up fatalism (as a submissive psychological attitude), the capacity to change or reprogram is still there. Ironically, one is still determining one's life even under fatalism, it's just that one is doggedly deciding to go to a bitter end (if that's where one's current orientations are disastrously taking one).

If Kastrup is a compatibilist...

Hard compatibilism can't tolerate randomness because it regards such as an intruder to the autonomous human body (interfering in its personal determinism).

Whereas soft compatibilism can tolerate minor randomness that does not significantly disrupt the system, regarding its presence as a natural part of the human identity, biological functioning, or some corner of physics.
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#4
Magical Realist Online
"You have come so far
to love your little life so much
that you would not trade a single scar."

Helen Meneilly
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