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Here’s why so many physicists are wrong about free will

#1
C C Offline
https://aeon.co/essays/heres-why-so-many...-free-will

EXCERPTS (George Ellis): The French mathematician Pierre-Simon Laplace (1749-1827) believed that the Universe was a piece of machinery, and that physics determines everything. Napoleon, who had read up on Laplace’s work, confronted him about the conspicuous absence of a creator in his theory. ‘I had no need of that hypothesis,’ came the reply. Laplace might have said the same thing about free will, which his mechanistic universe rendered superfluous.

Since Laplace’s day, scientists, philosophers and even neuroscientists have followed his lead in denying the possibility of free will. This reflects a widespread belief among theoretical physicists that if you know the initial values of the variables that characterise a physical system, together with the equations that explain how these variables change over time, then you can calculate the state of the system at all later times. For example, if you know the positions and velocities of all the particles that make up a gas in a container, you can determine the positions and velocities of all those particles at all later times. This means that there should be no freedom for any deviation from this physically determined trajectory.

[...] At very small scales, quantum theory underlies what’s happening in the world. Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle introduces an unavoidable fuzziness and an irreducible uncertainty in quantum outcomes. You might know the value of one variable, such as a particle’s momentum, but that means you can’t accurately detect another, such as its position. This seems to fundamentally undermine the allegedly iron-clad link between initial data and physical results.

[...] One of the most astounding discoveries of the previous century was that biological activity at the micro level is literally grounded in the physical shape of biological molecules [...] This means that, to link physics and biology, we need to look at the theory that underlies molecular shape. And that theory is quantum chemistry, based in the fundamental equation of quantum physics: the Schrödinger equation. In quantum theory, the state of a system is described by what’s known as its wave function, which determines the probabilities of different outcomes when events take place. The Schrödinger equation governs how the wave function changes with time. ... I will take for granted the validity of the Schrödinger equation, which is one of the best-tested equations in physics. To link this to the functioning of life, we need to apply the Schrödinger equation to the wave function of the relevant molecules – in this case, proteins – so as to determine how their shape will change with time.

[...] The confounding thing for free-will skeptics is that all outcomes don’t depend only on the equations and the initial data. They also depend on constraints. ... when constraints vary, outcomes are not determined by initial conditions; they depend on the way that the constraints change with time.

In the case of the biomolecules that underlie the existence of life, it’s the shape of the molecule that acts as a constraint on what happens. These molecules are quite flexible, bending around joints rather like hinges. The distances between the atomic nuclei in the molecules determine what bending is possible. Any particular such molecular ‘conformation’ (a specific state of folding) constrains the motions of ions and electrons at the underlying physical level. This can happen in a time-dependent fashion, according to biological needs. In this way, biology can reach down to shape physical outcomes. It changes constraints in the applicable Schrödinger equation.

[...] Ion channels are proteins imbedded in the cell wall, controlling the flow of ions in and out of the cell. They can be open or closed, depending on the position of their hinged parts. They thereby either allow movement of ions into or out of the cell (depending on their type), or prevent it. This gating plays a crucial role in brain functioning. ... It is these changes of molecular shape, rather than initial conditions, that determine which specific solutions of the molecular Schrödinger equation will occur in your brain when you’re thinking. They underlie the possibility of thought.

So what determines which messages are conveyed to your synapses by signalling molecules? They are signals determined by thinking processes that can’t be described at any lower level because they involve concepts, cognition and emotions in an essential way. Psychological experiences drive what happens. Your thoughts and feelings reach ‘down’ to shape lower-level processes in the brain by altering the constraints on ion and electron flows in a way that changes with time.

For example, suppose you’re walking down the street, and just in front of you a terrible accident happens – smashed-up cars, people injured, blood everywhere. You react with horror: sympathy for those who’ve been hurt, fear that they will die, a guilty sense of relief that it didn’t happen to you. These are all mental events that take place because of the way your brain functions at the psychological level, based on some combination of past experience and innate responses. None of those qualities – sympathy, fear, guilt – occur at the ion or synapse level. These high-level mental operations act down to alter the shape of ion channels, and so change the motions of billions of ions and electrons in your brain. In an intricate causal dance between levels in your brain, those thoughts are able to occur because of the underlying spike chains, but it’s their essentially psychological nature – what it means to recognise an accident, which thoughts flow through your mind as you decide what to do, what it feels like to experience the shock of seeing the event – that causes what happens. Physics enabled what took place in your head and body, but didn’t determine it; your mental interpretation of the event did.

Learning and memory offer another example of how downward causal effect shapes the underlying physics. [...] What these instances show is that psychological understandings reach down to shape the motions of ions and electrons by altering constraints at the physics-level over time. That is, mental states change the shape of proteins because the brain has real logical powers. This downward causation trumps the power of initial conditions. Logical implications determine the outcomes at the macro level in our thoughts, and at the micro level in terms of flows of electrons and ions.

[...] Free-will skeptics ignore the kind of time-dependent constraints that I discuss here, which enable downwards causation in biology in general and brain function in particular. Of course, nothing about molecular biology contradicts the physics that underlies all material existence. Rather, it provides an extraordinarily complex context where things work out according to that context. Even though our brains are indeed made up of fundamental particles, high-level function emerges through the interaction of upward and downward causal processes.

But still a nagging thought occurs: if the initial data were known for the entire Universe, then why can’t it determine all these lower-level dynamics in a mechanistic way? After all, aren’t they just smallscale details in this larger picture, where one can claim that no constraints occur? The Universe is by definition all that there is, so it can’t be constrained by effects from a larger environment. Might physics not be deterministic in that case, and my argument fall apart?

The response is twofold. First, there’s a major element of randomness in what happens both in cosmology at large scales and in molecular biology at small scales. At the large scales, in cosmology we have difficulty in getting the details of what happens right, even at galactic scales; we work only with statistical likelihoods. There are significant unsolved problems, such as how dark matter clumps around galaxies at scales hugely greater than that of the solar system. We can’t realistically determine from studies based in the initial conditions in cosmology what happens at smaller scales such as that of the Sun or Earth. There’s no hope whatsoever of predicting details down to the scale of the human body.

However, skeptics still say that it’s just a matter of lacking enough data and computing power. In principle, it could work. But actually, it won’t, because of what happens at the microscale. At molecular scales, the processes at work forget initial data due to billions on billions of collisions between molecules every second. Biology thrives on that disorder – a ‘molecular storm’, as Peter Hoffman calls it in his book Life’s Ratchet (2012). Molecular machines do work, such as kinesin moving cargos from one place to another in the cell, extracting order out of the chaos. Far from physics having the determinate nature envisaged by Laplace, all the molecules’ argy-bargy every microsecond means that the details of their initial state of motion are irretrievably lost. It’s this molecular-level chaotic motion that prevents micro-determinism in practice.

But how can order emerge out of this chaos? As explained by Denis Noble and Raymond Noble in their paper for the journal Chaos in 2018, molecular randomness gives cellular mechanisms the option of choosing the outcomes they want, and discarding those they don’t. This power of choice enables physiological systems such as the heart and brain to function in a way that isn’t enslaved by the lower-level interactions, but rather choosing the outcomes of the preferred interactions from a multitude of options. In this way, a layer of order can emerge from the disorder – and micro data – at the lower level. This isn’t conclusive proof that free will exists, but at least it opens up a way for it to exist.

For the sake of argument, let’s suppose I’m wrong. Let’s ignore all these issues and take the deterministic view seriously. It implies that the words of every book ever written – the Encyclopaedia Britannica, Das Kapital, the Harry Potter series – were encoded into the initial state of the Universe, whatever that was. No logical thinking by a human played a causal role in the specific words of these books: they were determined by physics alone.

It’s unclear how any words could have been encoded into the Universe, which led to apparently random fluctuations at the time when matter and radiation decoupled from each other. How would they have been represented in those fluctuations? It’s virtually impossible that they could have affected the detailed brain-state of the authors when they wrote their books. The issue of quantum uncertainty adds another layer of implausibility to these claims.

[...] Physics has made huge strides since the days of Laplace; indeed, it would be completely unrecognisable to him. Yet there are still physicists today who confidently proclaim that we can’t have free will because physics determines everything, including brain functioning – entirely ignoring the complex context and the power of constraints... (MORE - details)
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#2
Zinjanthropos Offline
I don’t know why some very passionate people devote so much time and energy to this subject when in the end the only thing that’s determined is that we’ll never know. Throw as much physics as you want at it and you’ll still be left with an element of doubt. 

IMHO this is belief territory. All you can do is play the odds and right now I’d say the chances are determinism not worth the trouble but maybe you’ve bet on a long shot. If you happen to be right I’ll be there 100%. It’s been determined that I be flexible.
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#3
confused2 Offline
(Jun 12, 2020 12:26 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I don’t know why some very passionate people devote so much time and energy to this subject when in the end the only thing that’s determined is that we’ll never know. Throw as much physics as you want at it and you’ll still be left with an element of doubt. 

IMHO this is belief territory. All you can do is play the odds and right now I’d say the chances are determinism not worth the trouble but maybe you’ve bet on a long shot. If you happen to be right I’ll be there 100%. It’s been determined that I be flexible.
If the Universe is a perfect machine then 'science' compels us to try to break the machine to see what happens. By way of example - anything from outside the Universe would be alien and would break the machine. The inside of a black might be alien enough.
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#4
Zinjanthropos Offline
(Jun 12, 2020 03:54 PM)confused2 Wrote:
(Jun 12, 2020 12:26 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I don’t know why some very passionate people devote so much time and energy to this subject when in the end the only thing that’s determined is that we’ll never know. Throw as much physics as you want at it and you’ll still be left with an element of doubt. 

IMHO this is belief territory. All you can do is play the odds and right now I’d say the chances are determinism not worth the trouble but maybe you’ve bet on a long shot. If you happen to be right I’ll be there 100%. It’s been determined that I be flexible.
If the Universe is a perfect machine then 'science' compels us to try to break the machine to see what happens. By way of example - anything from outside the Universe would be alien and would break the machine. The inside of a black might be alien enough.

Never heard anyone say the Universe itself or anything that exists outside of it was predetermined. Of course we could go on forever in that regard.
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#5
confused2 Offline
(Jun 13, 2020 12:36 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote:
(Jun 12, 2020 03:54 PM)confused2 Wrote:
(Jun 12, 2020 12:26 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I don’t know why some very passionate people devote so much time and energy to this subject when in the end the only thing that’s determined is that we’ll never know. Throw as much physics as you want at it and you’ll still be left with an element of doubt. 

IMHO this is belief territory. All you can do is play the odds and right now I’d say the chances are determinism not worth the trouble but maybe you’ve bet on a long shot. If you happen to be right I’ll be there 100%. It’s been determined that I be flexible.
If the Universe is a perfect machine then 'science' compels us to try to break the machine to see what happens. By way of example - anything from outside the Universe would be alien and would break the machine. The inside of a black might be alien enough.

Never heard anyone say the Universe itself or anything that exists outside of it was predetermined. Of course we could go on forever in that regard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdeterminism
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#6
Zinjanthropos Offline
From the Wiki article


Quote:The implications of superdeterminism, if it is true,


The key word is if .  Meaning .... we won’t ever know. That word is so common in the discussion of these types of topics. Once again....belief territory.
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#7
C C Offline
will - The capability of conscious choice and decision and intention.

free will - The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.

The supposed determinism of the universe in general shouldn't count as an "external agency" since those general forces/regularities locally make a human body possible in the first place. IOW, those recruited and constrained causes constitute the very volition of the individual.

Ironically, indeterminism usually does not facilitate free will. Randomness is devoid of pattern, principle, habit, guided deliberation, etc (i.e., it's not an agency). But it would be an external intruder to a system of will, and thus can derail what the latter might have done minus the interference. Another intentional agent can control a person and rob them of legal free will, and genuine randomness would accomplish the same via its unplanned disturbances (yet probably wouldn't apply in judicial evaluations).

Greg Ellis Wrote:So what determines which messages are conveyed to your synapses by signalling molecules? They are signals determined by thinking processes that can’t be described at any lower level because they involve concepts, cognition and emotions in an essential way. Psychological experiences drive what happens. Your thoughts and feelings reach ‘down’ to shape lower-level processes in the brain by altering the constraints on ion and electron flows in a way that changes with time. [...] But how can order emerge out of this chaos? As explained by Denis Noble and Raymond Noble in their paper for the journal Chaos in 2018, molecular randomness gives cellular mechanisms the option of choosing the outcomes they want, and discarding those they don’t. This power of choice enables physiological systems such as the heart and brain to function in a way that isn’t enslaved by the lower-level interactions, but rather choosing the outcomes of the preferred interactions from a multitude of options. In this way, a layer of order can emerge from the disorder – and micro data – at the lower level. This isn’t conclusive proof that free will exists, but at least it opens up a way for it to exist.


Randomness being recruited by a decision-making process arguably sidesteps randomness as an outsider disrupting the system. But it has to be a persistent resident and role-player to qualify as part of a selection-maker's identity. Only making widely irregular visits or barging in after long gaps goes back to being an interfering intruder.
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#8
confused2 Offline
black hole black hole black hole inside of a black hole I knew that you knew that everybody knew that those whom the gods would destroy gets given a keyboard
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#9
Zinjanthropos Offline
I’d like to see the permutations and calculations necessary to lay out the roadmap that set me on the path to select a jellybean from a jar full of jellybeans. I like the green ones. Sounds pretty easy, there’s only so many green jellybeans. However the selection event is only one out of countless gazillion events that had to occur before I got to choose. Every individual atom and its components have experienced an unfathomably enormous amount of events just to get to be part of a jellybean, not to mention a myriad of other events that occurred along the way. Sure it may be so that it was all predestined but I only want to see the computer/mind that worked on it. That thing should be at least the size of the universe or maybe larger...hmmm. Whether it was a god or machine, either should be able to tell me where the 1,234,487th carbon atom created is right now? lol
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#10
C C Offline
(Jun 16, 2020 12:13 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I’d like to see the permutations and calculations necessary to lay out the roadmap that set me on the path to select a jellybean from a jar full of jellybeans. I like the green ones. Sounds pretty easy, there’s only so many green jellybeans. However the selection event is only one out of countless gazillion events that had to occur before I got to choose. Every individual atom and its components have experienced an unfathomably enormous amount of events just to get to be part of a jellybean, not to mention a myriad of other events that occurred along the way. Sure it may be so that it was all predestined but I only want to see the computer/mind that worked on it. That thing should be at least the size of the universe or maybe larger...hmmm. Whether it was a god or machine, either should be able to tell me where the 1,234,487th carbon atom created is right now? lol


Yah, randomness is just non-predictablility by calculation or by any process conforming to principles or pattern. Even a block universe can contain states that cannot be foretold by calculation (are "chance"), even though every moment of time co-exists in it (past, present, and future are fixed).

People erroneously associate possibility with non-existence -- as in the claim that the "future does not exist", and therefore that somehow permits randomness, when actually the latter is dependent upon resisting conformity to formula.

Time doesn't flow in Everett's "many-worlds" interpretation of QM, either, so it's essentially a different kind of block-universe where all possibilities co-exist. "Many-worlds" is what would allow randomness in terms of personal experience, regarding you seeming to have consciously transited from one version of the universe to another, minus any principle defining that (i.e., random). But from an imaginary view outside the whole system, all versions of yourself are conscious just like the different versions of yourself developing through moments of time are each conscious (barring dreamless sleep, blow to the head, etc). But each different brain-state is limited to immediate awareness of only itself and the limited information it is holding -- not awareness of the other brain-states. So each brain-state in solipsist fashion deems only itself as existing, not the others.

Max Tegmark: Although quantum mechanics is often described as inherently random and uncertain, the wave function evolves in a deterministic way. There is nothing random or uncertain about it. The sticky part is how to connect this wave function with what we observe. [...] In the 1920s physicists explained away this weirdness by postulating that the wave function "collapsed" into some definite classical outcome whenever someone made an observation. ... Over the years many physicists have abandoned this view in favor of one developed in 1957 by Princeton graduate student Hugh Everett III. He showed that the collapse postulate is unnecessary. Unadulterated quantum theory does not, in fact, pose any contradictions. Although it predicts that one classical reality gradually splits into superpositions of many such realities, observers subjectively experience this splitting merely as a slight randomness, with probabilities in exact agreement with those from the old collapse postulate.

The past of the alternative growing block universe (GBU) view is just as set in stone as a conventional block universe. Though its non-existent future may have illusorily seemed to be open to possibility "before" it was classified as the past (i.e., yet to be converted into such). But like the ordinary block universe, the GBU can still contain circumstances in its past and present that are random (not predictable by quantitative operations).

Presentism (the dogma that only "now" exists) is actually little different from GBU. Since each short-lived "present" is carrying around the past in terms of stored information in the environment. That stored account of the past is just as fixed as that of the concrete past of the growing block-universe or conventional block universe. Once (its asserted) non-existent future becomes the past, that future is exposed as always having been set. But any incident proclaimed to have been "random" is still random because that simply means it resists compliance to order, principle, formula, pattern (humans, gods, etc can't predict the event by a simulation process).
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