Russian Ukraine Invasion

[Syne]

You've had years now to help Ukraine with troops. Pretending you need an excuse now is pointless.

[stryder]

You've had years now to help Ukraine with troops. Pretending you need an excuse now is pointless.

From the last Two World Wars the people clung onto is the notion that diplomacy can be triumphant and stop escalation. The problem is that in both of those wars, they initially had the exact same rational but in both cases diplomacy failed and it spread to a wider theatre with territory being taken and inevitably force being necessary to stave further problems.

That is one of the main reasons why "Economic" pressure through sanctions was attempted, however that only works when it's doubled down on and backed up.

Unfortunately having people with differences of opinion and not wanting to use similar methods (Trump not wanting to copy Biden etc) has weakened any strength of resolve for that to be a solution. Mixed signals is what makes it as a strategy look weak.

Trump will turn around and say about Europe buying oil from Russia. He could of pushed Orban more, but Orban sucks up to Trump, so he sees him as a devote ally in Europe so let him and Hungary off for 1 year for buying Russian oil. Next thing you know, Orban jumps on a plane like he's blessed by the pope to go make more deals with Putin.

In other words the European country that is the most prolific, the one that Trump refers to is the one that his words encouraged to do so.

The whole state of affairs is a f*king debacle.

As for why Europe doesn't do more.... Well if you haven't noticed a majority of the countries are NATO, however they can't make any impulsive decisions as it would either put them at threat of being excluded from NATO or from putting NATO at risk. Unfortunately the US carries a lot of weight in NATO decisions which means Europe can't just go do what it needs to do without sending a message to Trump and kissing his pinky ring.

So again it's more down to the US than anyone.

[geordief]

From the last Two World Wars the people clung onto is the notion that diplomacy can be triumphant and stop escalation.  The problem is that in both of those wars, they initially had the exact same rational but in both cases diplomacy failed and it spread to a wider theatre with territory being taken and inevitably force being necessary to stave further problems.

That is one of the main reasons why "Economic" pressure through sanctions was attempted, however that only works when it's doubled down on and backed up.

Unfortunately having people with differences of opinion and not wanting to use similar methods (Trump not wanting to copy Biden etc) has weakened any strength of resolve for that to be a solution.  Mixed signals is what makes it as a strategy look weak.

Trump will turn around and say about Europe buying oil from Russia.  He could of pushed Orban more, but Orban sucks up to Trump, so he sees him as a devote ally in Europe so let him and Hungary off for 1 year for buying Russian oil. Next thing you know, Orban jumps on a plane like he's blessed by the pope to go make more deals with Putin.

In other words the European country that is the most prolific, the one that Trump refers to is the one that his words encouraged to do so.

The whole state of affairs is a f*king debacle.

As for why Europe doesn't do more.... Well if you haven't noticed a majority of the countries are NATO, however they can't make any impulsive decisions as it would either put them at threat of being excluded from NATO or from putting NATO at risk.  Unfortunately the US carries a lot of weight in NATO decisions which means Europe can't just go do what it needs to do without sending a message to Trump and kissing his pinky ring.

So again it's more down to the US than anyone.

Trump wants to leave Nato as evidenced by his threat to do so based on EUs putting manners on X.
When push comes to shove we have to respect Ukraine's decision and accept that it is fighting our corner(indirectly) against the twin "evil empires" of US and Russia.

It is Stalin and Hitler vs Poland  on repeat  but hopefully Europe has more capability this time and the cop on to see what is happening.

[Syne]

You've had years now to help Ukraine with troops. Pretending you need an excuse now is pointless.

From the last Two World Wars the people clung onto is the notion that diplomacy can be triumphant and stop escalation. The problem is that in both of those wars, they initially had the exact same rational but in both cases diplomacy failed and it spread to a wider theatre with territory being taken and inevitably force being necessary to stave further problems.

Oh, I remember Neville Chamberlain, with his little peace treaty signed by Hitler.
Seems Europe hasn't learned much since.

That is one of the main reasons why "Economic" pressure through sanctions was attempted, however that only works when it's doubled down on and backed up.

Unfortunately having people with differences of opinion and not wanting to use similar methods (Trump not wanting to copy Biden etc) has weakened any strength of resolve for that to be a solution. Mixed signals is what makes it as a strategy look weak.

Differences of opinion... like Europe continuing to fund Russia's war?

Trump will turn around and say about Europe buying oil from Russia. He could of pushed Orban more, but Orban sucks up to Trump, so he sees him as a devote ally in Europe so let him and Hungary off for 1 year for buying Russian oil. Next thing you know, Orban jumps on a plane like he's blessed by the pope to go make more deals with Putin.

In other words the European country that is the most prolific, the one that Trump refers to is the one that his words encouraged to do so.

The whole state of affairs is a f*king debacle.

So one land-locked country in eastern Europe, with few oil resources of its own, is an excuse for the rest of Europe? 9_9

As for why Europe doesn't do more.... Well if you haven't noticed a majority of the countries are NATO, however they can't make any impulsive decisions as it would either put them at threat of being excluded from NATO or from putting NATO at risk. Unfortunately the US carries a lot of weight in NATO decisions which means Europe can't just go do what it needs to do without sending a message to Trump and kissing his pinky ring.

So again it's more down to the US than anyone.

No, Europe could act any time it wants, because NATO only protects them from unprovoked attack. The US is not obligated to join in their own aggression.

Just more pathetic European excuses for complete inaction.

---

putting manners on X.

Censorship.

[stryder]

As for why Europe doesn't do more.... Well if you haven't noticed a majority of the countries are NATO, however they can't make any impulsive decisions as it would either put them at threat of being excluded from NATO or from putting NATO at risk.  Unfortunately the US carries a lot of weight in NATO decisions which means Europe can't just go do what it needs to do without sending a message to Trump and kissing his pinky ring.

So again it's more down to the US than anyone.

No, Europe could act any time it wants, because NATO only protects them from unprovoked attack. The US is not obligated to join in their own aggression.

Just more pathetic European excuses for complete inaction.

And the excuse of pathetic US inaction... greed, corruption, abuse, cowardice?

---

putting manners on X.

Censorship.

Moaning about Europes for censorship is silly considering the US censors by PAYWALLS, or in recent times like www.imgur.com or when Europe wanted to stop tracking cookies a lot of US sites started using GEOIP blocking (Limiting to US) through cloudflare. Which again is censorship.

[Syne]

As for why Europe doesn't do more.... Well if you haven't noticed a majority of the countries are NATO, however they can't make any impulsive decisions as it would either put them at threat of being excluded from NATO or from putting NATO at risk.  Unfortunately the US carries a lot of weight in NATO decisions which means Europe can't just go do what it needs to do without sending a message to Trump and kissing his pinky ring.

So again it's more down to the US than anyone.

No, Europe could act any time it wants, because NATO only protects them from unprovoked attack. The US is not obligated to join in their own aggression.

Just more pathetic European excuses for complete inaction.

And the excuse of pathetic US inaction... greed, corruption, abuse, cowardice?

Not our backyard, nor in our interest to fund a forever war.
Again, more excuses from those most concerned about it. Blame everyone but your own impotence.

putting manners on X.

Censorship.

Moaning about Europes for censorship is silly considering the US censors by PAYWALLS, or in recent times like www.imgur.com or when Europe wanted to stop tracking cookies a lot of US sites started using GEOIP blocking (Limiting to US) through cloudflare.  Which again is censorship.

Paywalls are individual companies' doings, not government. Imgur is due to UK laws, it's still available here in the US. Can't blame companies for not wanting to jump though European regulation hoops.

Cry to your own nanny-state government.

[stryder]

As for why Europe doesn't do more.... Well if you haven't noticed a majority of the countries are NATO, however they can't make any impulsive decisions as it would either put them at threat of being excluded from NATO or from putting NATO at risk.  Unfortunately the US carries a lot of weight in NATO decisions which means Europe can't just go do what it needs to do without sending a message to Trump and kissing his pinky ring.

So again it's more down to the US than anyone.

No, Europe could act any time it wants, because NATO only protects them from unprovoked attack. The US is not obligated to join in their own aggression.

Just more pathetic European excuses for complete inaction.

And the excuse of pathetic US inaction... greed, corruption, abuse, cowardice?

Not our backyard, nor in our interest to fund a forever war.
Again, more excuses from those most concerned about it. Blame everyone but your own impotence.

putting manners on X.

Censorship.

Moaning about Europes for censorship is silly considering the US censors by PAYWALLS, or in recent times like www.imgur.com or when Europe wanted to stop tracking cookies a lot of US sites started using GEOIP blocking (Limiting to US) through cloudflare.  Which again is censorship.

Paywalls are individual companies' doings, not government. Imgur is due to UK laws, it's still available here in the US. Can't blame companies for not wanting to jump though European regulation hoops.

Cry to your own nanny-state government.

You are kind of missing the point Syne. You're completely double standards, and into the sociopathic (and pro-Russian) propaganda of trying to blame the other guy. It won't work.

---

You might want to consider also Eisenhower, as while Europe was reeling from war, the US and Russia started comparing penis sizes. Which lead to the Cold War and all those missiles that both the US and Russia like to stockpile.

[Syne]

You are kind of missing the point Syne.  You're completely double standards, and into the sociopathic (and pro-Russian) propaganda of trying to blame the other guy.  It won't work.

It's Europe's doorstep, not ours, hence Europe should be more invested and investing. No double standard, just different national interests. The actual double standard is Europe crying about Putin while buying Russian oil & gas.
No one's blaming the other guy, but you seem interested in using that accusation to, what, shame the US into doing your work for you? It's like Europe is a child and they demand the US change their dirty diaper.

You might want to consider also Eisenhower, as while Europe was reeling from war, the US and Russia started comparing penis sizes.  Which lead to the Cold War and all those missiles that both the US and Russia like to stockpile.

Sure, because Russia wouldn't have made a nuclear arsenal without the Cold War. 9_9
Where do you think we'd be today, if the US had no deterrent to Russian nuclear weapons? @_@

It's as if none of your arguments are the least bit reasoned out.

[stryder]

You are kind of missing the point Syne.  You're completely double standards, and into the sociopathic (and pro-Russian) propaganda of trying to blame the other guy.  It won't work.

It's Europe's doorstep, not ours, hence Europe should be more invested and investing. No double standard, just different national interests. The actual double standard is Europe crying about Putin while buying Russian oil & gas.
No one's blaming the other guy, but you seem interested in using that accusation to, what, shame the US into doing your work for you? It's like Europe is a child and they demand the US change their dirty diaper.

You might want to consider also Eisenhower, as while Europe was reeling from war, the US and Russia started comparing penis sizes.  Which lead to the Cold War and all those missiles that both the US and Russia like to stockpile.

Sure, because Russia wouldn't have made a nuclear arsenal without the Cold War. 9_9
Where do you think we'd be today, if the US had no deterrent to Russian nuclear weapons? @_@

It's as if none of your arguments are the least bit reasoned out.

Its not that Europe wants America to do the task of fixing a problem. Sure it will take some time but Europe can sort that out itself. What it wants is the assurance that an "Ally" intends to be an "Ally" by backing it's overall play. Currently all we've seen of Trumps America is exactly the opposite. Selling out any Alliances for a shot at making deals with Putin. (whos likely pulling strings to get it that way).

So it's not about us wanting the US to fix it, we just don't want to see the US lose it's self due to the selfish ambitions of one man.

[C C]

So it's not about us wanting the US to fix it, we just don't want to see the US lose it's self due to the selfish ambitions of one man.

Apparently Trump prefers projecting muddy signals. Before he was POTUS, he would complain about how those previous administrations would announce exactly what they were going to do ahead of time or precisely what they were for. Thus losing what he considered a tactical advantage of unpredictability. He likes to generate uncertainty, even when it comes to seeming to waver back and forth about an _X_, and appearing capricious.

With Europe, I suppose intermittently rebuking them and appearing like he might sell them down the river has worked to the extent that he originally wanted them to increase their military spending and become more independent. But that kind of theatrical prodding can potentially be carried too far. I think he has had some of his spokespeople off and on attest to being dedicated to NATO, Europe, whatever. But that probably gets lost in the general din of confusion he stirs up: "I'm committed to you guys. Screw you guys. We're here to help our friends. You illegitimates can piss away on your own from this point on. Love you guys. Putin's a great guy."