Russian Ukraine Invasion

[Kornee]

Crude divide and conquer - guilt by association - rears its ugly head. Except in reality there is no actual 'guilt' to be ashamed of or shunned.
Actual straw man: Pointing out demonstrably provable deceit/FF tactics employed by US/NATO in previous conflicts, is somehow trying to get Russia off the moral hook re current invasion of Ukraine.
BS! All the pertinent complexities that have imo INEVITABLY led to the current conflict involving, but not limited to, Ukrainian invasion, have been aired extensively earlier this thread.

What is being demonstrated by some on this and many other forums no doubt, is a classical illogical, emotion/loyalty driven 'my team right or wrong' attitude.
What is acceptable and indeed expected attitudes in sports team loyalty arena, is NOT a rational approach to carry over to making a truly informed and objective overview here.

[Secular Sanity]

Well, since Russia had no authority over any of those, maybe you should rethink agreeing with an antisemitic conspiracy theorist. Using countries independent of Russia as an excuse for Russia to invade a sovereign neighbor is intellectually dishonest. The US/NATO never had designs on permanent annexation/occupation. So this whataboutism is a straw man.

Did we? No, NATO did NOT have the authority of the United Nations Security Council to use force in Yugoslavia.

During the debate on NATO’s expansion, Dr. Mandelbaum's forecast was spot on.

I would make two comments in particular. First, this agreement has been put in place on the basis of publicly stated and diametrically opposite interpretations by the American and Russian Presidents. President Yeltsin said on television, publicly, to the Russian people that this gives Russia a veto over all the issues of concern to Russia in Europe. President Clinton told us just the opposite. So, I fear that this could be a recipe for misunderstanding.
   
More to the point, Senator, President Yeltsin and every other Russian has asserted that the NATO—Russia charter is null and void if and when NATO expands beyond these three to former Republics of the Soviet Union. That is why I say, Senator, that the current expansion, as planned, puts that second expansion irrevocably on the agenda, presents us with a problem that we can neither avoid nor solve, and to no benefit to ourselves.

Now, let me explain to you why Yeltsin proclaimed that the NATO-Russian Founding Act gave Russia veto power.

Clinton said, that in crafting the Founding Act, NATO structured its discussions with Russia with extreme care. We declared at the outset that there were some things we were willing to do, and that there were some that we were not. But we also had five red lines. We said Russia would have no veto over NATO decisions including its own enlargement. We said there would be no delay in the enlargement process. We said we would not subordinate NATO and the North Atlantic Council, its decision-making body, to any other body or organization. We said we would not do anything that would consign new NATO members to second class status. We said that the act does not automatically exclude any qualified European state from future consideration for NATO membership.

BUT that is not true. Our so-called peacekeeping operations, (not the self-defense of NATO allies) were supposed to be carried out under the authority of the U.N. or OSCE, of which Russia is a member of both, meaning that Russia would have veto power. Our way around this was to bypass the Security Council.

Provisions of this Act do not provide NATO or Russia, in any way, with a right of veto over the actions of the other nor do they infringe upon or restrict the rights of NATO or Russia to independent decision-making and action. They cannot be used as a means to disadvantage the interests of other states.
• support, on a case-by-case basis, of peacekeeping operations carried out under the authority of the UN Security Council or the responsibility of the OSCE.
• once consensus has been reached in the course of consultation, making joint decisions and taking joint action on a case-by-case basis, including participation, on an equitable basis, in the planning and preparation of joint operations, including peacekeeping operations under the authority of the UN Security Council or the responsibility of the OSCE.

NATO, THE U.N. AND THE USE OF FORCE: Legal Aspects

"If the Washington Treaty by which NATO was established has a hard legal core, which even the most dynamic and innovative (re-)interpretation cannot erode, it is NATO’s subordination to the principles of the UN charter. 

As Jeffrey Laurenti puts so well, that abandonment of the Security Council’s asserted monopoly on determining the lawful use of force against others, except in self-defense, could put the world community on a slippery slope of competing claims of ‘rights’ to intervene—with the potential consequence of escalating hostilities rather than solving them. Some worry that the U.N. has too many inhibitions about the use of force, but NATO under U.S. pressure may have too few.

The genie of NATO's 'self-authorization' must not be let out of the bottle. This is the opinion of other NATO members, as well."

Most European members of NATO feel that there’s a need for a U.N. Security Council mandate for every NATO military intervention. In contrast, the U.S. feels limiting NATO to those actions with having the approval of the Security Council could subject the Alliance to an effective veto by China or Russia. 

Like I said earlier, we've put the Ukrainian people between a rock and a hard place. Their blood is on our hands.

[Magical Realist]

Meanwhile...in the real world:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/19/europe/ma...index.html

"Near Vinnytsia, Ukraine (CNN) People in the Ukrainian city of Mariupol risk their lives each time they emerge from underground bunkers, a local military official said, claiming the strategic port is facing the most intense fighting anywhere in the country.

With Russia's assault in its fourth week, Major Denis Prokopenko, from the National Guard Azov Regiment, told CNN that air and land attacks on the city were now almost relentless.

"Usually, Mariupol is under fire during the whole day and night. Sometimes there (are) 30 minutes of silence, but then the city is again under attack (from) tanks, artillery, multiple rockets, and (aircraft) like bombers and helicopters," he said.


Mariupol has been under siege for several weeks and has seen some of the worst attacks in the war since Russia began its invasion of Ukraine in February. These have included deadly strikes on a maternity ward and the bombing of a theater, the losses from which are still unknown as the rescue operation continues.

The city lies on a stretch of coast connecting the eastern region of Donbas with the Crimea peninsula, both of which have been under Russian control since 2014. Russian forces appear to be trying to take full control of the area to create a land corridor between the two regions, squeezing Mariupol with brutal military force.

Russia has denied targeting civilians in Mariupol, blaming casualties on Ukrainian forces.

Prokopenko said people in the city were now reluctant to leave their underground shelters even to get hold of essentials, meaning they were trying to drink less water and eat less food, only emerging to prepare hot meals.

"People are cooking food in the streets, risking their lives under the continuous shelling and bombing," the military commander said. "The temperature is minus 5 degrees Celsius in the street."

Basic services like gas, electricity and water, are all out in the city. Bodies are being left in the street because there is either no one left to collect them, or it is simply too dangerous to try.

Prokopenko said no one knew the exact number of people killed. "Some people are buried under ruined buildings, buried alive," he said.

Information about a huge attack three days ago on a theater in Mariupol being used as a shelter has been slow to emerge.

An image taken Saturday by the Maxar satellite imagery provider shows about two-thirds of the Mariupol Drama Theater completely destroyed, with just the western facade still standing.

The building, which also acted as the city's main humanitarian assembly station, was providing a temporary home to 800 to 1,300 people when it was hit, according to local officials.

Still clearly visible in the picture is the Russian word for "children" painted in large letters on the ground in front of the entrance.

He confirmed earlier reports that sustained Russian artillery fire made attempts to get survivors out of the building very difficult.

Communications in the besieged city have been difficult for days and rescue work has been hampered by the danger of near-continuous shelling, according to reports from inside the city.

Initial reports suggested many survivors had to dig themselves out of the rubble. Figures released by several Ukrainian leaders, including President Volodymyr Zelensky, say 130 people have been rescued, among them one person with serious injuries.

During a video call with the Ukrainian Minister of Culture Oleksandr Tkachenko on Friday, Italian Minister of Culture Dario Franceschini offered to help rebuild the Mariupol Drama Theater.

Zelensky thanked Franceschini on Twitter Wednesday saying that Italy "set a good example to follow. Together we will rebuild the country to the last brick."

[Syne]

Well, since Russia had no authority over any of those, maybe you should rethink agreeing with an antisemitic conspiracy theorist. Using countries independent of Russia as an excuse for Russia to invade a sovereign neighbor is intellectually dishonest. The US/NATO never had designs on permanent annexation/occupation. So this whataboutism is a straw man.

Did we? No, NATO did NOT have the authority of the United Nations Security Council to use force in Yugoslavia.

I'm sorry. What I meant to say was, fuck off antisemitic sympathizer and Putin apologist.

[C C]

Meanwhile...in the real world:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/19/europe/ma...index.html

"Near Vinnytsia, Ukraine (CNN) People in the Ukrainian city of Mariupol risk their lives each time they emerge from underground bunkers, a local military official said, claiming the strategic port is facing the most intense fighting anywhere in the country.

With Russia's assault in its fourth week, Major Denis Prokopenko, from the National Guard Azov Regiment, told CNN that air and land attacks on the city were now almost relentless.

"Usually, Mariupol is under fire during the whole day and night. Sometimes there (are) 30 minutes of silence, but then the city is again under attack (from) tanks, artillery, multiple rockets, and (aircraft) like bombers and helicopters," he said.

Mariupol has been under siege for several weeks and has seen some of the worst attacks in the war since Russia began its invasion of Ukraine in February. These have included deadly strikes on a maternity ward and the bombing of a theater, the losses from which are still unknown as the rescue operation continues. [...]

While, on the conspiracy front... It's actually the Ukrainians that are bombing their own civilians.
- - - - - - -

Wartime reporter confirms Ukrainians are bombing civilians and media is blaming Russia
https://truth11.com/2022/03/18/wartime-r...ng-russia/
- - - - - -

Captured Russian pilot admits to bombing civilians (Well, you know... It was a Ukrainian source, though. Putin's media and Westophobic alt-news tell the true story. )
https://www.yahoo.com/news/captured-russ...55480.html

KEYPOINTS: A captured Russian pilot admitted to targeting Ukrainian civilians and urged Russia to call off the assault on Ukraine. Lt. Colonel Krishtop Maxim Sergeevich was shot down on March 6 and taken into custody, Interfax Ukraine reported. "I think we have already lost this war," Krishtop said at a press conference with other prisoners of war.
- - - - - -

Why Russia is killing civilians in Ukraine with ‘dumb’ bombs after its precision-guided weapons run out
https://inews.co.uk/news/world/why-russi...ut-1510444

EXCERPT: “They [the Russians] don’t have many laser-guided weapons. And we can assume they’re fast running out of what they do have,” he adds. Most of the ground-launched rockets are 60s-designed Grad missiles, for which the strategy is point, fire and hope for the best. In other words, they couldn’t bomb more accurately if they tried.

The Russian air force was thought to have used unguided dumb bombs in Syria, in an effort to shift responsibility for possible war crimes and civilian deaths onto its ally, the regime of Bashar Assad. UN sources said at the time that the use of less accurate bombs would make it more difficult for war crimes investigators to distinguish strikes responsible for civilian deaths from other attacks carried out by Syria’s less sophisticated forces.

But it will be be difficult for Russia to blame anyone else for the attacks on apartment blocks and hospitals in Ukraine, despite some hardline supporters of Putin suggesting that the Ukrainians are bombing themselves...

---

And pre-emptively ("sarcasm of the sarcasm" nested levels)... On the history sub-channel of the Whataboutism Network, or the "general admirers of and rogue conservatives, evangelists, & Trumpers for Putin" bandwagon....
- - - - - -

Who Started the Bombing of Civilians in WWII?
https://barnesreview.org/who-started-the...s-in-wwii/

INTRO: As part of a general post-World War II propaganda campaign to paint the Germans in as bad a light as possible, the controlled media has always claimed that the Germans started the bombing of civilians, using the two examples of the Luftwaffe attack on Warsaw, Poland, in September 1939 and the May 14, 1940 bombing of Rotterdam, the Netherlands.

The propaganda story goes along the lines that the Germans bombed these cities and thereby set the example of the mass bombing of civilians—and then followed this up with the “blitz” on London. Only after all this, it is claimed, did the Germans “get back” what they had dished out.

This myth has been stated over and over so many times by the controlled media that it has become the “popular” understanding of the course of the war. The reality, like so much else about World War II, is completely the opposite...
- - - - - -

Bombing of Civilians
https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/enc...-civilians

EXCERPT:  In World War I and at the start of World War II, Germany and Great Britain were primarily responsible for initiating deliberate bombing of cities. [...] Before and during World War II, the [United States] Army Air Corps's doctrine of precision bombing, and widespread media celebration of it, disguised the nation's ability and willingness to bomb enemy civilians, a practice that President Franklin D. Roosevelt supported vigorously, if mostly in private.

[...] Some army and navy leaders criticized the bombing that ensued but lacked the power or keen desire to stop it. With notable exceptions, Air Corps leaders, eager for the air force to win the war, worried only when bombing civilians threatened their public image. As a result, American bombing of civilians escalated during World War II, although British forces attacked cities more zealously in Europe...

[stryder]

Russia's "targetting of civilians" is likely a Side effect of using Heat Signatures for corrective guidance

In other words missiles fitted with an Infrared guidance system that picks up on heat when in proximity of the general target area. This means large areas where crowds take cover, barracks and other locations like that. (It would explain how they even managed to take people out standing in line for bread rations)

That means for safety the only option is to lower the overall heat footprint (space further apart), cover locations with heat proofing (Similar to illegal cannabis farm installations) and generate high heat locations to act as decoys.

[Secular Sanity]

Well, since Russia had no authority over any of those, maybe you should rethink agreeing with an antisemitic conspiracy theorist. Using countries independent of Russia as an excuse for Russia to invade a sovereign neighbor is intellectually dishonest. The US/NATO never had designs on permanent annexation/occupation. So this whataboutism is a straw man.

Did we? No, NATO did NOT have the authority of the United Nations Security Council to use force in Yugoslavia.

I'm sorry. What I meant to say was, fuck off antisemitic sympathizer and Putin apologist.

And I should have just said, FUCK OFF, LIBTARD.

---

Clinton liked to draw a parallel between NATO’s expansion and the Marshall Plan being all-inclusive with his little "Partnership for Peace" program that included Russia, but it wasn’t. When Truman and General George Marshall created the Marshall Plan, they didn’t invite Poland, Portugal and France to create a new divide between West Germany. They made every effort to transform Germany into a democracy. NATO has created an atmosphere where Russia had to build up their defenses and vice versa. We inflamed Russian Nationalism, created a new Cold War, and arms makers made a killing, while making huge contributions to the democratic party.

Good job, Bill Clinton. [golf-clap]

Zelenskyy said they have heard for years about NATO’s open doors, but we’ve been told that we won’t be able to join. It’s the truth and it’s necessary to admit it. I’m glad that our people are starting to understand it.

In 2013, McCain told the crowds at Euromaidan, "People of Ukraine, this is your moment. This is about you and no one else. This about the future you want for your country. This is about the future you deserve. A future in Europe. A future in peace with all your neighbors. The free world is with you. America is with you. I am with you! And the destiny that you seek lies in Europe. Ukraine will make Europe better and Europe will make Ukraine better."

Sadly, they’re not even on the list because of issues with the IMF.

Ukraine and the International Monetary Fund

[confused2]

Not relevant to war but it is a thing

from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_oligarch

List of oligarchs by wealth

In total, the top 100 wealthiest business people in Ukraine control around $44,5 billion, according to Forbes,[8] which accounts for 27% of Ukrainian GDP in September, 2021.[9]

The top 10 Ukrainian oligarchs were identified as:
Rank Oligarch Value Notes
1 Rinat Akhmetov $7,6 billion Energy generation and distribution, coal and iron ore mining, metallurgy, media industry
2 Victor Pinchuk $2,5 billion Steel rolling, media industry
3 Kostyantyn Zhevago $2,4 billion Banking, vehicle manufacturing, iron ore mining
4 Ihor Kolomoyskyi $1,8 billion Banking, crude oil
5 Henadiy Boholyubov $1,7 billion Banking
6 Oleksandr and Halyna Hereha $1,7 billion Retail
7 Petro Poroshenko $1,6 billion Vehicle manufacturing, confectionery
8 Vadym Novynskyi $1,4 billion Metallurgy, shipbuilding, Russian Orthodox Church
9 Oleksandr Yaroslavsky $820 million Real estate, metallurgy
10 Yuriy Kosiuk $780 million Agriculture, food industry

I haven't totted it up accurately but I'm guessing a fair (feel free to disagree) proportion of the money pumped into the country is comparable to the money that ended up controlled by a very small number of people.

[Syne]

I'm sorry. What I meant to say was, fuck off antisemitic sympathizer and Putin apologist.

And I should have just said, FUCK OFF, LIBTARD.

Quit being a troll, moron. It's been painfully obvious, for years, that I'm the closest thing you've ever seen to a real conservative, living out there in leftist bubble land. If you really think antisemitism and Putin apologetics is part and parcel with the right, you're only admitting to both by trying to call me liberal. You've listened to the likes of Tucker Carlson, who's never been a real conservative, too much. Only the moron authoritative minority on the right likes Putin. And even they don't attack America like you do. At most, they only attack the Biden administration.

So quit LARPing that you're on the right. At best, you're a useful idiot of the left.

[Secular Sanity]

Quit being a troll, moron. It's been painfully obvious, for years, that I'm the closest thing you've ever seen to a real conservative, living out there in leftist bubble land. If you really think antisemitism and Putin apologetics is part and parcel with the right, you're only admitting to both by trying to call me liberal. You've listened to the likes of Tucker Carlson, who's never been a real conservative, too much. Only the moron authoritative minority on the right likes Putin. And even they don't attack America like you do. At most, they only attack the Biden administration.

So quit LARPing that you're on the right. At best, you're a useful idiot of the left.

I’ve already stated where I obtain my information. I don’t need to repeat it for your dumbass.

As far as the U.S. is concerned, NATO closed the sky in Bosnia and Libya. Why not Ukraine? You don’t even know, dumb(_i_). So, don’t give me your creepy Nancy Pelosi virtue signaling patriotism.