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Biden declares war on the 80M unvaccinated Americans

#21
C C Offline
(Sep 11, 2021 06:09 PM)Yazata Wrote: Before the 2020 election we had Gov. Andrew Cuomo telling Anderson Cooper that half the country didn't trust "Trump's vaccine" and weren't willing to put a needle in their arm if they didn't trust it.

Kamala Harris said flat out that she wasn't going to be vaccinated. Joe Biden characteristically tried to finesse it and didn't say what his vaccination plans were, but did say that he didn't have confidence in the vaccine.

Then after the election, everything suddenly revolved 180 degrees! It's obvious to me that it's being used as a political weapon.

2020 political rhetoric (vaccine survivalism)
https://www.scivillage.com/thread-10944-...l#pid45981

(Sep 11, 2021 06:09 PM)Yazata Wrote: [...] As for me, my views are:

1. I have considerable (but not absolute) confidence in the vaccines. I'm vaccinated and have been for months. I'm willing to take a booster if the scientific evidence points to that being useful. But right now, I have almost zero personal fear of covid.

2. I would strongly encourage others to be vaccinated. That applies especially to those in high risk categories.

3. I don't believe that the vaccinated at at significant risk from covid. While breakthrough infections occur, the risk of death from them is almost vanishingly small. Of the 163 million vaccinated Americans in July 2021, there had been 1,263 deaths attributed to covid. That's 1/129,365. (numbers from US CDC) The risk that a vaccinated person might die of covid seems to be about half the risk that an average person will die of the flu in a typical year.

4. So unvaccinated individuals represent very little threat to those who are vaccinated. Biden's claim that the unvaccinated threaten the lives of their vaccinated peers is simply false.

5. If vaccination is available to all and remaining unvaccinated is a matter of choice, and if the risk that unvaccinated people present is only to themselves and to other voluntarily unvaccinated individuals, then it would seem to me that it's their personal choice whether they want to accept that risk. If anyone wants to minimize that risk, they can freely choose to get vaccinated.

6. My opinion is that fear of covid is being intentionally stoked and is being driven for what often are political purposes. There isn't really a whole lot of factual basis for it. But it's a great way of mobilizing public opinion against the evil "antivaxxers" who are supposedly (but really aren't) threatening all the Good People. Supposedly dangerous threats identified with the political enemies of those in power. The public will accept almost anything if you can make them afraid enough.

7. It's been a year and a half since covid appeared and there's little sign that many governments are prepared to relax the draconian emergency powers that they simply seized at the beginning and show all signs of becoming permanent. The power to place entire populations effectively under house arrest, the power to control where they can go outside their homes and what they can do once there. (The Constitution be damned.)

8. The issue that most concerns me is not the issue of who is and who isn't vaccinated. The issue that agitates me is the way that covid is being used, by ruling elites around the world, to erode and even to eliminate the average person's basic freedoms, rights and liberties, things that at least ostensibly define our civilization and way of life. Values that the generations that came before us fought and died to protect.
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#22
Syne Offline
(Sep 11, 2021 06:09 PM)Yazata Wrote: As for me, my views are:

1. I have considerable (but not absolute) confidence in the vaccines. I'm vaccinated and have been for months. I'm willing to take a booster if the scientific evidence points to that being useful. But right now, I have almost zero personal fear of covid.
I'm not vaccinated, as my health, age, and immune system (never had the flu) do not indicate the need. If I feared Covid, I probably would, as I have no ideological problem with vaccines. But I would prefer there to be long term data on any new drug before I take it, as I try to live with little to no drugs.

Quote:2. I would strongly encourage others to be vaccinated. That applies especially to those in high risk categories.
So do I. Even though I don't feel the need, I advocate for anyone afraid of Covid to get vaccinated, to alleviate their fear and hopefully help return the economy to some semblance of normal.

Quote:3. I don't believe that the vaccinated at at significant risk from covid. While breakthrough infections occur, the risk of death from them is almost vanishingly small. Of the 163 million vaccinated Americans in July 2021, there had been 1,263 deaths attributed to covid. That's 1/129,365. (numbers from US CDC) The risk that a vaccinated person might die of covid seems to be about half the risk that an average person will die of the flu in a typical year.
Even in Biden's speech announcing the vaccine mandates, he reiterated the low risk to the vaccinated, even from breakthrough infections, at least twice, with undermines the whole thing. Either the vaccinated have little to fear from the unvaccinated, or the vaccines aren't much protection at all. Acting like you're still reliant upon herd immunity just confuses people on the efficacy of the vaccine, further exacerbating any hesitancy.

Quote:4. So unvaccinated individuals represent very little threat to those who are vaccinated. Biden's claim that the unvaccinated threaten the lives of their vaccinated peers is simply false.
By his own admission.

Quote:5. If vaccination is available to all and remaining unvaccinated is a matter of choice, and if the risk that unvaccinated people present is only to themselves and to other voluntarily unvaccinated individuals, then it would seem to me that it's their personal choice whether they want to accept that risk. If anyone wants to minimize that risk, they can freely choose to get vaccinated.
A government of free people is largely meant to handle externalities (consequences of actions that adversely affect others), not to protect people from themselves or their own choices. The more it does the latter, the more authoritarian it becomes.

Quote:6. My opinion is that fear of covid is being intentionally stoked and is being driven for what often are political purposes. There isn't really a whole lot of factual basis for it. But it's a great way of mobilizing public opinion against the evil "antivaxxers" who are supposedly (but really aren't) threatening all the Good People. Supposedly dangerous threats identified with the political enemies of those in power. The public  will accept almost anything if you can make them afraid enough.
It's all political. Even before Covid, they liked to label all anti-vaxxers and Republicans, even though many leftists, vegans, minorities, etc. that typically vote Democrat have avoided vaccines. Jenny McCarthy sure ain't a right-winger.

Quote:7. It's been a year and a half since covid appeared and there's little sign that many governments are prepared to relax the draconian emergency powers that they simply seized at the beginning and show all signs of becoming permanent. The power to place entire populations effectively under house arrest, the power to control where they can go outside their homes and what they can do once there. (The Constitution be damned.)
It's about grabbing power, not protecting people or saving lives. The latter are just a pretty face to put on the former.

Quote:8. The issue that most concerns me is not the issue of who is and who isn't vaccinated. The issue that agitates me is the way that covid is being used, by ruling elites around the world, to erode and even to eliminate the average person's basic freedoms, rights and liberties, things that at least ostensibly define our civilization and way of life. Values that the generations that came before us fought and died to protect.
Luckily, Americans still have their guns, and red states are the bulwark against the erosion of freedom. That may ultimately mean that sane people need to vote with their feet and leave failing leftists states to rot in their own perverse policies. Whatever happens, we can't let them take the means to fight for and protect those freedoms.
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#24
Syne Offline
And if you're vaccinated, you have nothing to fear, right? The only alternative is that vaccines aren't anywhere near as effective as advertised, in which case, more people being vaccinated isn't going to improve your safety either. Stern is just whining about the draconian measures enforced by Democrats. Has nothing to do with the unvaccinated.

If you're still afraid to leave your house, I only have one word for you. Pussy.
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#25
confused2 Offline
Why the UK needs herd immunity (through vaccination).

UK vaccinated population = 40 million
% breakthrough cases needing hospital care (estimate) = 0.5%
Now multiply 5 by 4 and keep track of the zeros
Expected breakthrough cases needing hospital care = 200,000
UK hospital beds= 100,000
Average hospital stay for covid patients=7 days
So every bed occupied for 2 weeks by breakthrough cases.
Or roughly 4% of available resources taken by breakthrough cases.
The UK NHS doesn't have 4% spare capacity.
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#26
Syne Offline
Well, Brits do have to account for their weaker constitutions.
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#27
Secular Sanity Offline
I thought the whole idea of getting vaccinated was to inhibit the opportunities that it has to mutate. The more people it infects, the more opportunities it has to mutate, and with each mutation, a new and stronger variant can emerge. It already snips off distress signals and destroys antiviral commands inside infected cells. If it learns to evade our immune system altogether, we could be in serious trouble. Not only that, but many of the most common viruses stay in the body forever. Virus latency is always a concern. Some can resurface when your immune system is weakened and others can inhibit tumor suppressor proteins leading to cancer. I’d rather have the nonreplicating and noninfective protein shell with the spike proteins than the actual virus with its RNA inside.
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#28
Syne Offline
Viruses don't generally become stronger, more virulent as they mutate, otherwise influenza would have already decimated humans. Nor are they more likely to mutate in the unvaccinated relative to the vaccinated. All evidence is that Covid mutates slower than the flu, even though it is more transmissible. Vaccines can also contribute to virus mutations. The vaccinated can still contract Covid, the virus mutate in response to the vaccine, and even though the vaccinated notice no symptoms (as the vast majority of infected, since antibody tests have shown that virus rates were 10 times higher than reported), they can still spread that mutation response to the vaccine to others. Now, we hope that the vaccine lowers their viral load enough to slow that spread, but we have no way of knowing the ultimate source of variants. It's very likely that asymptomatic Covid in the unvaccinated has an equally low viral load and spread. Now, can Covid potentially spread faster in the unvaccinated? Sure. But it's transmissibility does not cause as much mutation as spreading the flu.
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#29
Zinjanthropos Offline
Evolution at work. From the virus itself to our own physiology, evolving or evolved to combat one another. We are the most adaptive organism that ever lived so why not use this fantastic trait?

We all seem to carry a different level of natural immunity. I figure that it wouldn’t hurt to be vaxxed even if totally immune and of course it might help those who are less immune. Some of us have little or no chance regardless. So I’m thinking the govt knows the vax isn’t needed by everyone, won’t do any good for others and perhaps a large majority of people need it just to improve their odds. They just don’t know who and so the best course of action is countrywide vaccination.

The other course of action is to refuse. If we all refused there would be a specific number of us who will survive and die. Others will get sick or build up some immunity. Would the numbers be noticeably different if no vaccinations took place?

The biggest problem seems to be the taxing of health care systems. They just cant handle the number of sick people so it’s possible death toll would be higher if no vax. Yep, Spanish Influenza disappeared on its own but maybe it just ran out of prone to the disease customers. I know couple persons who never got polio vaccine and suffer from it....were they going to get it anyways? Somehow I doubt it. Just get vaxxed so we can return to some normalcy a little quicker.
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#30
Secular Sanity Offline
(Sep 12, 2021 03:33 PM)Syne Wrote: Viruses don't generally become stronger, more virulent as they mutate, otherwise influenza would have already decimated humans. Nor are they more likely to mutate in the unvaccinated relative to the vaccinated. All evidence is that Covid mutates slower than the flu, even though it is more transmissible. Vaccines can also contribute to virus mutations. The vaccinated can still contract Covid, the virus mutate in response to the vaccine, and even though the vaccinated notice no symptoms (as the vast majority of infected, since antibody tests have shown that virus rates were 10 times higher than reported), they can still spread that mutation response to the vaccine to others. Now, we hope that the vaccine lowers their viral load enough to slow that spread, but we have no way of knowing the ultimate source of variants. It's very likely that asymptomatic Covid in the unvaccinated has an equally low viral load and spread. Now, can Covid potentially spread faster in the unvaccinated? Sure. But it's transmissibility does not cause as much mutation as spreading the flu.

The delta variant is worse. It reminds me of that scary movie with Denzel Washington, "Fallen".

♫♫Yes time, time, time is on my side, yes it is
♫♫Time, time, time is on my side, yes it is

And as Christopher Martin said, "Large numbers of unvaccinated people do make variants more likely."
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