Biden declares war on the 80M unvaccinated Americans

[Magical Realist]

Some vaccines use products derived from pigs

Nope. Can't use that excuse. No animal products are used in the 3 covid vaccines used in the US.

"A spokesperson for Pfizer confirming there are no animal products used in the development and manufacturing of their COVID-19 vaccine. Instead, the vaccine is made of "synthetic and enzymatically produced components."

A representative for Jansen, J&J’s pharmaceutical subsidiary, also verified "there are no animal products in our vaccine -- the vaccine does not use any pork by-product" while Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine fact sheet also confirmed its vaccine "contains no preservatives, no antibiotics, and no products from human or animal origin."

https://www.11alive.com/article/news/ver...0b28d895f7

And if "moral" people have problems putting unknown substances in their bodies, then maybe they should send all food they eat to a lab first to ascertain its contents. Wouldn't want to force anything on them. lol!

[Syne]

I didn't say any of the Covid vaccines used pig products. You even quoted me saying "some vaccines," but apparently didn't comprehend that simple qualifier, nor that it only applied to Muslims and Jews. Animal testing was certainly used to develop the Covid vaccines, of which many vegans do object.

No one is mandating that people eat certain foods, so that's a completely faulty analogy. Try again.

[C C]

I wonder if the US is the only country that has basically politicized a pandemic? IMO, that's largely the problem and why there's so much division.

Though involving a smaller percentage of the population, there's at least one parallel via a study taken of the UK and Israel that came out last week:

"A new study from Imperial College London has found a link between COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy and a perceived lack of free will over vaccine passports. The findings, taken from surveys of 1,358 people across the UK and Israel – two highly vaccinated countries – found that people who feel their sense of autonomy, or free will, is unmet by government incentives like vaccine passports are less likely to take the COVID-19 vaccine."
- - - - -

Globally, of the 15 countries tracked by one agency, only Russia has a higher rate of vaccine opposition than the U.S. (But it has 65% of the U.S. vaccinated with at least one shot, compared to the 54% of other sources, so who knows how accurate it is.) It apparently adds those who plan with certainty to get vaccinated with those who have, to measure non-opposition.

Top 3 factors for vaccine hesitancy around the globe seem to be:

1. Concerned about side effects

2. Worried the clinical trials moved too fast

3. Don't think the vaccine will be effective

With "Don't trust the companies making the vaccines" and "The risk to me of getting COVID-19 is small" wrestling over the 4th spot.

https://morningconsult.com/global-vaccine-tracking/

[Syne]

When Biden is trying to force companies to have their employees vaccinated, in order "to protect vaccinated workers from unvaccinated coworkers," that's literally telling people that he doesn't believe the vaccines works. Vaccines are supposed to be the thing that protects vaccinated workers from the virus, whether directly from the unvaccinated or not. If it's so dire that there needs to be a national mandate, it's an admission that it's already been rendered obsolete by the new variant.

[stryder]

(I'm not a doctor or work in the medical profession, so I could be completely inaccurate in my thoughts so by all means take the following with a pinch of salt.)

I tend to think of Covid's spread using the rationality that an average unvaccinated person requires a "parts per million" threshold of Covid aerosol before being infect. What this means is if the parts per million (or ppm) is under a certain amount it's less likely(Not impossible) to cause an uninfected person to contract it.

When a person has a vaccination, they are increasing the threshold of that ppm. It hasn't made them invulnerable to the virus, it just reduces the chances of them contracting it. As mentioned in other threads, the effectiveness of the vaccines reduces over time. (Vaccines were really meant as a firebreak rather than an irradication measure.)

What does this mean in regards to Bidens push on vaccination federal employees.

Consider if you are all in the same workplace that the air you breath is going to have a number of things flowing around making up it's particulates. It can be skincells, other viruses, bacteria, dust particles but it's also potentially Covid. That environment is a"Homeostasis" of sorts, whereby certain things will find it far easier to survive and spread. (I doubt anyone ever considered working with a co-worker would actually make you more prone to illness from them however not everything is negative any antibodies they exhale could also aid you in fighting infections)

Part of the herd immunity rationality is to have those homeostasis environments producing more antibodies, so those that venture into them are not just less likely to become infect but also possibly picking up immunity too.

Should it force on liberties etc. Technically no... but there would need to be a better solution (perhaps artificially creating the homeostasis through emitting antibodies into the air however without it going through the natural development of person to persons who acting as a biological filters, it might not be compatible with a peoples genetics/own immune systems.)

I guess thats the point, not everyone wants to be injected. Imagine if there was an inhaler that contained antibody boosters you could take a shot or too of before going into a room with people etc.

[Leigha]

What Biden is saying, and what's actually happening, are two different things. For example, some employers are already ''mandating'' that their employees get vaccinated by 'x' date. (Disney comes to mind.) Others state that if their employees are vaccinated, they don't have to wear a mask while at work. If those employers aren't checking vaccination cards, and rely on the honor system, unvaccinated employees may lie to avoid standing out from their vaccinated peers. One of the local grocery store chains in my area is requiring unvaccinated customers to wear masks, but every time I make a trip there, nearly everyone isn't wearing masks, and we know that some may not be vaccinated.

The CDC states that you have a .02% chance per day, of getting Covid if you're fully vaccinated. You can spread Covid if you have a breakthrough infection involving the Delta variant, but breakthrough infections are also rare. So, the vaccine isn't ''obsolete.''

Many vaccinated people are angry because they feel that they've ''done their part'' and the unvaccinated are keeping the spread of Covid going, the death rate rising (99.5% of all Covid deaths stem from the unvaccinated), etc.

The thing is, not all people refusing to get the Covid vaccine are ''anti-vaxxers,'' and that has been a message pushed by the media, to get vaccinated people to draw a line in the sand against those who don't want to get vaccinated. Between the missteps of the CDC with Covid messaging, and the media...many Americans don't know what to believe.

It's a personal choice that everyone has to make for themselves, but perhaps the government/employers feel that if the vaccine is a mandatory requirement to work at 'x' company, the sooner we will get ''back to normal,'' if there is such a thing anymore. This doesn't make it ethical, I'm just guessing as to if there could be an altruistic reason behind the mandate.

[confused2]

England NHS (National Health Service) figures

97,000 General and acute hospital beds
( https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/st...overnight/ )


Total patients admitted to hospital from start of epidemic:500,000
Total deaths attributed to Covid-19: 134,000
Not all deaths will have occurred in hospital and the odds may be better now but:
Roughly 25% of those admitted to hospital with covid-19 left feet first.

Right now (Sept 2021)  we have daily:
Hospital intake:911
Deaths:135 (13% death rate)
The intake is rising so the death rate may increase with time. However, significantly better odds than before which 'some' are attributing to the effects of vaccination. The same people are keen to stop people going into hospital (it is a finite resource and other people have problems they'd like fixed) and the only thing that can possibly help is vaccination - so 'they' are very keen on vaccinating people.

Patients in mechanical ventilation beds

Peaks
April 2020:3,300
Jan 2021:4,066
Lows
Sept 2020: 60
Aug 2021: 120

Now (Sept 2021): 1047
So 1047 on ventilation compared to 60 at the same time last year (17.5x more).

Patients admitted to hospital with covid-19 per day

Peaks
April 2020: 2930
Jan 2021: 4,200

Lows
Aug 2020 :70
May 2021:113

This time last year:91
This year (Sept 2021):911
So 10x more going to hospital than this time last year.
( https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare )

In the UK there are people responsible for planning ahead (using sheep's entrails?) - things looks rather tricky for the NHS right now.

The figures for the US may not be comparable but if they are:
The US relies on market forces instead of planning but even so some might call it irresponsible not to try to sound some sort of warning.

[Syne]

Forgot to mention earlier. In the US vaccine mandates are done by each state. Only immigrant visa applicants are mandated by the federal government. So there's another disparity between Covid and past vaccines.

[confused2]

My rather crude estimates of death rate are confirmed here:

Deaths among hospitalised Covid [UK] patients dropped from 32 per cent at the start of the pandemic in March and April 2020 to 16 per cent by the end of the first wave last summer.

Analysis of some 64,000 adults in nearly 250 hospitals found a drop in deaths for all age groups, all ethnicities, for both sexes and in patients with and without underlying conditions.

Researchers found the reduction was associated with adoption of steroids as a newly proven treatment, and improvements in breathing support techniques and critical care. The team says the change was, in part, a reflection of improved clinical knowledge.

The risk of death for people admitted to hospital with Covid-19 was extremely high at around one in three at the start of the first wave, and consistently improved over subsequent months. Part of this improvement can be explained by differences in the people who were admitted to hospital, and how sick they were. Further reduction in the risk of death can be explained by improvements in care of Covid-19 patients with treatments and better use of advanced respiratory support.

Dr Annemarie Docherty

Journal article published  in The Lancet Respiratory Medicine

This article was published on 27 May, 2021

Taken from
https://www.ed.ac.uk/news/2021/covid-ins...ival-rates

[Yazata]

Before the 2020 election we had Gov. Andrew Cuomo telling Anderson Cooper that half the country didn't trust "Trump's vaccine" and weren't willing to put a needle in their arm if they didn't trust it.

Kamala Harris said flat out that she wasn't going to be vaccinated. Joe Biden characteristically tried to finesse it and didn't say what his vaccination plans were, but did say that he didn't have confidence in the vaccine.

Then after the election, everything suddenly revolved 180 degrees! It's obvious to me that it's being used as a political weapon.

As for me, my views are:

1. I have considerable (but not absolute) confidence in the vaccines. I'm vaccinated and have been for months. I'm willing to take a booster if the scientific evidence points to that being useful. But right now, I have almost zero personal fear of covid.

2. I would strongly encourage others to be vaccinated. That applies especially to those in high risk categories.

3. I don't believe that the vaccinated at at significant risk from covid. While breakthrough infections occur, the risk of death from them is almost vanishingly small. Of the 163 million vaccinated Americans in July 2021, there had been 1,263 deaths attributed to covid. That's 1/129,365. (numbers from US CDC) The risk that a vaccinated person might die of covid seems to be about half the risk that an average person will die of the flu in a typical year.

4. So unvaccinated individuals represent very little threat to those who are vaccinated. Biden's claim that the unvaccinated threaten the lives of their vaccinated peers is simply false.

5. If vaccination is available to all and remaining unvaccinated is a matter of choice, and if the risk that unvaccinated people present is only to themselves and to other voluntarily unvaccinated individuals, then it would seem to me that it's their personal choice whether they want to accept that risk. If anyone wants to minimize that risk, they can freely choose to get vaccinated.

6. My opinion is that fear of covid is being intentionally stoked and is being driven for what often are political purposes. There isn't really a whole lot of factual basis for it. But it's a great way of mobilizing public opinion against the evil "antivaxxers" who are supposedly (but really aren't) threatening all the Good People. Supposedly dangerous threats identified with the political enemies of those in power. The public  will accept almost anything if you can make them afraid enough.

7. It's been a year and a half since covid appeared and there's little sign that many governments are prepared to relax the draconian emergency powers that they simply seized at the beginning and show all signs of becoming permanent. The power to place entire populations effectively under house arrest, the power to control where they can go outside their homes and what they can do once there. (The Constitution be damned.)

8. The issue that most concerns me is not the issue of who is and who isn't vaccinated. The issue that agitates me is the way that covid is being used, by ruling elites around the world, to erode and even to eliminate the average person's basic freedoms, rights and liberties, things that at least ostensibly define our civilization and way of life. Values that the generations that came before us fought and died to protect.