God and evidence

[Magical Realist]

The same goes for god. If we knew, as an empirical fact, that god exists, we'd be insane to do anything but believe and try to follow it.

What's wrong with that if that is the fact of the situation? You're saying we lose freewill if God reveals himself. But isn't that what he does--reveal himself so we can make a rational and informed decision. I see no value nor freedom in God hiding his existence from the creatures he created to enjoy his company. This freewill argument is just a elaborate excuse to explain the apparent absence of a God from the universe.

[C C]

[...] But it would certainly bolster my faith if I saw this man raise someone from the dead! That ability would definitely be god material.

Lots of fraudulent practitioners. Magic tricks are ancient, and thus miracles (and unusual events in general) were as unconvincing to some people back then as to the skeptics of today. The Book of Revelation probably references "signs and wonders" in its last days, with segments of its public dismissing that stuff as BS. (Perhaps not unlike this era's reports of UFOs, ghosts, cryptids, etc being associated with crackpots, drug-using crackers, and gullible people.)

Then the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “When Pharaoh says to you, ‘Prove yourselves by working a miracle,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and cast it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.’”

So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent.

Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents.

But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. Still Pharaoh’s heart was hardened [skeptical?], and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

[Leigha]

Yes, that's right. ^

So, maybe there really is no miracle (or ''revealing'') at all that could convince *everyone* that God exists, therefore it requires faith.

''Faith consists of believing, when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.'' - Voltaire (believed in God, but not a ''personal'' one - he was into Deism, I think?)

[Magical Realist]

''Faith consists of believing, when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.'' - Voltaire

I wonder how this rule of thumb prevents believers from having faith in irrational delusions. Seems all sorts of things could be believed once reason is thrown out.

[Leigha]

''Faith consists of believing, when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.'' - Voltaire

I wonder how this rule of thumb prevents believers from having faith in irrational delusions. Seems all sorts of things could be believed once reason is thrown out.

What do you mean by ''irrational delusions?''

[Magical Realist]

''Faith consists of believing, when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.'' - Voltaire

I wonder how this rule of thumb prevents believers from having faith in irrational delusions. Seems all sorts of things could be believed once reason is thrown out.

What do you mean by ''irrational delusions?''

QAnon for one. Many other conspiracy theories as well. The Illuminati. The Deep State. Reptiles in disguise. Bill Gates' microchips.

[Leigha]

''Faith consists of believing, when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.'' - Voltaire

I wonder how this rule of thumb prevents believers from having faith in irrational delusions. Seems all sorts of things could be believed once reason is thrown out.

What do you mean by ''irrational delusions?''

QAnon for one. Many other conspiracy theories as well. The Illuminati. The Deep State. Reptiles in disguise. Bill Gates' microchips.

Oh my lol Here I thought you were going to name paranormal activity, Bigfoot, and alien abduction theories.

It would seem that some of the members of conspiracy type cults, consider themselves religious to some degree. Hard to say what attracts them, but the internet seems to showcase fringe ideas (and the cults that are created to promote them) in a way that I don't see ''in real life,'' to be honest. As discussed in another thread, there are some ''true'' conspiracy theories, so all wouldn't be ''irrational delusions,'' only those that have zero evidence to support them. Anxiety, psychological problems, borderline personality disorders and so on also drive the attraction to fringe cults, so it's not an entirely fair comparison to say that people who believe in God, automatically would have a tendency to concoct conspiracy theories.

Regarding Voltaire's quote - he supposedly came to Deism through reason. How ironic. lol

[Yazata]

What evidence would prove to you the existence of God?

Frankly, I don't know.

The problem is that I don't know of any way to objectively detect or measure Holiness. (God isn't alone in that regard, it seems to apply to things like good, evil and beauty as well.) Holiness and the others seem to me to be subjective, more about different kinds of reactions that I have to something than about the thing itself.

This immediately demonstrates a problem with God as an evidential being. Does he exist in that sense? What about miracles? But then we can never be sure a miracle isn't just occurring by itself or by fiat of some other powerful being.

What's the difference between a miracle and magic? Or a sufficiently advanced technology for that matter?

No matter how clearly God manifests himself to us, there will always remain a doubt that he is an elaborate hoax perpetrated by some other highly advanced being. (see Wizard of Oz).

I think of that as the 'Indepence Day Problem'. (From the movie.) Just because something puts of on a spectacular light show in the sky and displays inexplicable powers, doesn't in and of itself mean that we should fall on our knees and worship it.

So, what's the difference between a deity and a super-powered space alien?

[C C]

''Faith consists of believing, when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.'' - Voltaire

I wonder how this rule of thumb prevents believers from having faith in irrational delusions. Seems all sorts of things could be believed once reason is thrown out.

What do you mean by ''irrational delusions?''

QAnon for one. Many other conspiracy theories as well. The Illuminati. The Deep State. Reptiles in disguise. Bill Gates' microchips.

QAnon is a curious development, especially with respect to the speed it arose and the array of absurdity.

In the past (and supposedly to this day) the FBI has created movements, and manipulated or re-engineered existing organizations to serve its purposes. (See the COINTELPRO background at bottom).

In the 20th-century their targets were usually left-wing, but in this era a PsyOp strategy would more likely be aimed at discrediting different segments of the population. Or to literally infect them with derangement-inducing memes, which seems to be more the case. It's certainly not mere appearance that formerly sensible or semi-sensible citizens have become nuts.

Another possibility is that this was the handiwork of Russian, Iranian, or Chinese psychological warfare.

It's a bizarre possibility, but one that loses that status after realization sets in that it has historically been accomplished numerous times. (Albeit more crudely, minus the refinements and tools of this century.)

What would be new is re-shaping the mentality of people and indoctrinating them through social media. Rather than the traditional channels of PsyOp manipulation and propaganda distribution (including the in-person gatherings of groups where there were guest speakers and literature distributed).

COINTELPRO
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

EXCERPT: . . . In 1971 in San Diego, the FBI financed, armed, and controlled an extreme right-wing group of former members of the Minutemen anti-communist paramilitary organization, transforming it into a group called the Secret Army Organization that targeted groups, activists, and leaders involved in the Anti-War Movement, using both intimidation and violent acts.

The FBI has used covert operations against domestic political groups since its inception; however, covert operations under the official COINTELPRO label took place between 1956 and 1971. COINTELPRO tactics are still used to this day and have been alleged to include discrediting targets through psychological warfare; smearing individuals and groups using forged documents and by planting false reports in the media; harassment; wrongful imprisonment; and illegal violence, including assassination. According to a Senate report, the FBI's motivation was "protecting national security, preventing violence, and maintaining the existing social and political order".

[Yazata]

I'm reasonably convinced that there are "things unseen", or at least unknown to me. (I would venture to say they are unknown to everybody else too. Hence my agnosticism.)

Why does existence exist at all? What are mathematics and logic, how do we know about them and how did they originate? What explains and determines the laws of physics? And countless questions like that. What are meanings and how do words possess and transmit them? When I talk about something, what connects my words and the thing that I'm talking about?

The more I think about anything, the less I understand it. (It's the tragedy of having once been a philosophy major.) Reality makes sense and seems familiar only if we don't poke too deeply or ask too many questions.

So my faith in "things unseen", at least in the sense of "the unknown", rises almost to the level of certainty.

But that metaphysical stuff isn't really what religion is about, is it?

Whatever the unseen answers are, it's expected that they will be relevant and meaningful in our lives. More than that, the answers are expected to be comforting. In many cases they seem to me to be inspiring and uplifting narratives into which the events, major or minor, tragic or glorious, of our lives can be plugged to give them meaning. It's something that transforms life from just 'One damn thing after another' into something like a novel, a story with a plot and a conclusion in which everything works out in the end.