Bodily integrity vs moral responsibility

Failure really doesn't affect intent. It can all be lumped under suicidality.

(Jan 3, 2017 04:50 AM)Syne Wrote: Failure really doesn't affect intent. It can all be lumped under suicidality.

ok, i recognise your point.
i have found there is quite differing opinions on this subject by profesionals.
hence my comment.
the formation of your comment is the inference that there is a 40% death rate by suicide post op.
i can also sound out your inference to suggested assitance to be of value to interfearing with suicide, at which point the self determinant factor of the moral debate is maybe... already a forgone conclusion as far as debate is concerned.

i am not sure of your intended position for this subject(to frame the debate).
layman or clinical.
your inferances sound very much like predetermined layman opinion but you seem to be suggesting a process of clinal test for the arguement.
if failure were the test then things like marriage counselling cross matched with domestic homicide means marriage counsellors are in part guilty of antagonising domestic homicide and domestic abuse as the actual divorce rate is close to 50% and the consequential domestic homicide rate is close to 45% of all homicides.

thus, you could argue that gender re-assignment saves the lives of the majority of the patients by a value of 60%, though this doesnt sound like your point you are elluding to.

Since GRS doesn't improve suicidality, it cannot be considered to save lives. 40% suicidality holds for transgenders, pre or post op. This would seem to bolster the notion that many transgenders suffer mental illness at higher rates than other populations, and may increase societal responsibility to protect the mentally ill from themselves.

Marraige counselors do not share the same kind of liability nor responsibility surgeons do, especially considering couples do not display an alarming rate of mental illness.

(Jan 3, 2017 06:38 AM)Syne Wrote: Since GRS doesn't improve suicidality, it cannot be considered to save lives. 40% suicidality holds for transgenders, pre or post op. This would seem to bolster the notion that many transgenders suffer mental illness at higher rates than other populations, and may increase societal responsibility to protect the mentally ill from themselves.

Marraige counselors do not share the same kind of liability nor responsibility surgeons do, especially considering couples do not display an alarming rate of mental illness.

Quote:This would seem to bolster the notion that many transgenders suffer mental illness at higher rates than other populations, and may increase societal responsibility to protect the mentally ill from themselves.

(i find it interesting that you are associating the mental illness as the primary driver when them dissasociative issues with long term abuse and social rejection would be signifigantly higher in such a group. not withstanding obvious bio-chemical differences not unlike uni & bi polar disorders along with depresion and hyperactivity alogn with other causative symptomatics like OCD. the assertion that these people are in some way supposed to be perfectly functional all but for a simple physical op (GRA) i am quite beguiled by)
Transgender along with homosexual and bi-sexual people suffer a far greater amount of physical & psychological abuse than the average person andit is something that happens over their entire life span.
because of the abuse starting very early in childhood it is fundermentally the same as long term child abuse as a risk factor and should be considered in a similar ball park.
mostly it appears that long term child abuse victims tend to suffer greatly more than non abused in Drug addiction, self harm and suicide.

How would you propose protecting a long term child abuse victim from themselves ?
the drug addiction self harm suicide and sexual self harm is extremely dominant.
it reminds me of children in cults and the de-programming that goes on.

Quote:Marraige counselors do not share the same kind of liability nor responsibility surgeons do, especially considering couples do not display an alarming rate of mental illness.

the marriage counselling based on YOUR construct of failure being imperative to valuation of intervention through attempting to keep a couple together is only going to bring around a 50% succes rate and out of the failue rate there will be deaths.
if "causality" is part of your key arguement for consideration to intervention then surely that is a considerable statistical signifigant comparative.

and i do maybe and hopefully mistakenly get a hint of morose pleasure you find in the mortality of this subject.
your comments refering to "natural" tend to give your inferance that natural is by some way acceptable as a primary force of compliant non interfearance.
though i am just as likely to have miss read and miss understood some of what you have mentioned as it is quite a large complex topic.
"treat the illness" not the patient ? is that your suggestion ?
thus attempt to treat the long term abuse dissasociative issues and socialisation issues to use CBT to imerse them into a normative behaviour pattern socially ?
it is only recently that LGBT associations have been formed to start to begin the normalisation process for social acceptance.

(Jan 3, 2017 02:12 AM)Syne Wrote: Sorry, I assumed you could would read it for yourself.

IOW, GRS does not alleviate suicidality, implying that the remarkably higher suicide rate among transgenders is not strongly correlated to body differing from subjective gender identity. This was the closest I've seen to answering your question.

Sorry, being that it was your topic, I assumed that you could would read more than just cheap, cherry picked articles.

From your link:

"The overall mortality rate was only significantly increased for the group operated before 1989. However, the latter might also be explained by improved health care for transsexual persons during 1990s, along with altered societal attitudes towards persons with different gender expressions.

In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment.

Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered."

From an actual book:

Principles of Transgender Medicine and Surgery
Randi Ettner, Stan Monstrey, Eli Coleman

"Although most outcomes studies of the last two decades are very positive, there are nevertheless some worrisome papers.  The first is from Newfield et al. (2006), reporting lower scores on quality of life for transmen than for the general population.  Looking into more detail, one-third of subjects has received no treatment at all.  Those transmale participants who had received testosterone reported statistically significant higher quality of life scores that those who had not received hormone therapy.

The other paper is Swedish retrospective study from Dhejne et al. (2011), giving data form more than 10 years after surgery.  The authors found that, in comparison with the general population, the trans population reported significantly more admissions to psychiatric clinics, more suicide attempts, and also more suicides.  These results were even more striking for transwomen that transmen.  Unfortunately, this cohort study gave results only concerning the comparison of mental health with the general population.  The study did not compare the pre- and post- surgery prevalence of mental health issues, nor was there a control group who had not received treatment or received other that genital surgery."

How vital is social support, social acceptance, and self-acceptance, Syne?  Rejection, exclusion, and acceptance are central to our lives and the lack of contributes to suicidal thoughts.

They are hungry and even dying for acceptance, and thanks to the increased media attention and online social networking, general awareness and acceptance of transgender issues has increased exponentially.

Unfortunately, though, we now have Ms. Fancy Pants with her PhD in philosophy destabilizing the progress.  And why?  To promote her book.

(Jan 3, 2017 02:27 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote:

(Jan 3, 2017 02:12 AM)Syne Wrote: Sorry, I assumed you could would read it for yourself.

IOW, GRS does not alleviate suicidality, implying that the remarkably higher suicide rate among transgenders is not strongly correlated to body differing from subjective gender identity. This was the closest I've seen to answering your question.

Sorry, being that it was your topic, I assumed that you could would read more than just cheap, cherry picked articles.

From your link:

"The overall mortality rate was only significantly increased for the group operated before 1989. However, the latter might also be explained by improved health care for transsexual persons during 1990s, along with altered societal attitudes towards persons with different gender expressions.

In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment.

Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered."

From an actual book:

Principles of Transgender Medicine and Surgery
Randi Ettner, Stan Monstrey, Eli Coleman

"Although most outcomes studies of the last two decades are very positive, there are nevertheless some worrisome papers.  The first is from Newfield et al. (2006), reporting lower scores on quality of life for transmen than for the general population.  Looking into more detail, one-third of subjects has received no treatment at all.  Those transmale participants who had received testosterone reported statistically significant higher quality of life scores that those who had not received hormone therapy.

The other paper is Swedish retrospective study from Dhejne et al. (2011), giving data form more than 10 years after surgery.  The authors found that, in comparison with the general population, the trans population reported significantly more admissions to psychiatric clinics, more suicide attempts, and also more suicides.  These results were even more striking for transwomen that transmen.  Unfortunately, this cohort study gave results only concerning the comparison of mental health with the general population.  The study did not compare the pre- and post- surgery prevalence of mental health issues, nor was there a control group who had not received treatment or received other that genital surgery."

How vital is social support, social acceptance, and self-acceptance, Syne?  Rejection, exclusion, and acceptance are central to our lives and the lack of contributes to suicidal thoughts.

They are hungry and even dying for acceptance, and thanks to the increased media attention and online social networking, general awareness and acceptance of transgender issues has increased exponentially.

Unfortunately, though, we now have Ms. Fancy Pants with her PhD in philosophy destabilizing the progress.  And why?  To promote her book.

And? You seem to think I've asserted that suicidality increases after GRS. Again, you're acting condescending while arguing a strawman. Remember, we talked about that. You apologized for being unjustifiably condescending and acted like you would try to refrain from fallacious arguments. Here, you're right back to doing both. Why don't you quit worrying about what I've read and just read what I actually wrote, instead of making erroneous assumptions? The only thing being condescending about a strawman does is make you look like an insecure fool.

Where are the study results that back up your claim that "increased media attention and online social networking, general awareness and acceptance of transgender issues" has had ANY impact on the rate of mental illness and suicidality among the transgendered? In order to claim that rejection is the sole cause, you have to have at least a strong positive correlation. As it stands, we only have an uncontrasted correlation that tells us zero about causation. In order to establish causation, you'd need a study showing that their suicidality and mental illness has improved relative to more acceptance.

Got anything like that?

---

@RainbowUnicorn

Like I just told SS, in order to claim rejection is causative in the remarkably higher rate of mental illness and suicidality (even when compared to other socially rejected populations), you'd have to show improvement in improved environments. Otherwise social rejection could simply be a consequence of the mental illness rather than its cause.

I agree, most, if not all, non-gender-conforming identities have suffered from childhood abuse. It has become politically incorrect to study whether the non-conforming identity shares the same cause as the other symptoms of mental illness. We have to ask why transgenders are even more suicidal than average/gender-conforming child abuse victims.

Analysis shows that the non-abused group had a lower prevalence of lifetime suicide attempts (6.0%) than the physical abuse (11.7%), sexual abuse (14.8%) and both abuse types (32.2%) groups. - http://psychcentral.com/news/2008/08/04/.../2685.html

The only studies that I can find that claim to show GRS improves mental illness, is behind a pay wall, so I cannot scrutinize their methodology, sample size, or follow up to access validity.

We can only protect people from the harm we are aware of. We can try to protect children, keep people off drugs, and keep the mentally ill from potentially doing permanent harm to themselves.


Where did I say failure was imperative?! I said it makes little difference if the suicide attempt failed or succeeded, since the real issue is the suicidality itself. Similarly, you could say that it makes little difference if the marriage counseling failed or succeeded, since the real issue is the motivations that make the divorce rate so high. If the suicidality is not directly related to the gender dysphoria, then the doctor could still be enabling the mentally ill. At least the marriage counselor is trying to help save the marriage (preserve the status quo).

The better analogy to the GRS surgeon would be the divorce attorneys, where one is not helping the suicidality (but may be contributing to the mental illness) and the other is not helping the marriage (but is actively seeking to profit from its dissolution).

(Jan 3, 2017 07:28 PM)Syne Wrote: And? You seem to think I've asserted that suicidality increases after GRS.

Nope. Only that it isn't sufficient.  

(Jan 3, 2017 02:12 AM)Syne Wrote: Even  though surgery  and  hormonal  therapy  alleviates  gender  dysphoria,  it  is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons.

This is something that we don’t know yet because the studies did not compare the pre- and post- surgery prevalence of mental health issues, nor was there a control group who had not received treatment or received other than genital surgery.

Minors certainly warrant further discussion, but let’s return to your video of Ms. Paglia for a moment, shall we?  There’s a few unresolved WTFs.

Transgender Mania is Sign of Cultural Collapse

Transgenderism

"It’s become a fashion."—Camille Paglia  WTF?  

     

Perhaps, we could soothe all of Ms. Paglia’s concerns by simply wearing a burka.  Maybe that’s a fashion that she would approve of.

Just listen to her.  She’s a babbling idiot with a whole lot of UMKs.

Camille Paglia

"The transgender definition has become a kind of convenient label for young people who may simply feel alienated culturally for many other reasons.  In the 1950s they might have become a beatnik.  In the 1960s they might have become a hippie and taken mind expanding drugs.  I think a lot of it has to do with the assault on masculinity.  

We’re becoming a culture that no longer believes in itself and what you invariably get are people who are convinced of the power of heroic masculinity on the edges.  Whether they’re the vandals, the Huns, or the barbarians of ISIS.  You see them starting to mass on the outsides of the culture and that’s what we have right now.  There’s a tremendous disconnect between our fascinations with transgender movements in our own culture and what’s going on out there.  I’m concerned.  I feel it’s ominous."  WTF?

I don’t think the little Missy has done much traveling because Islamic men are very effeminate.  

"So rather than people singing the praises of humanitarian liberalism that allows all of these transgender possibilities to appear and to be encouraged, I would be concerned about how Western culture is defining itself to the world.

Because in fact these phenomena are inflaming the irrational, indeed borderline psychotic opponents of Western culture in the form of ISIS and other jihadists, etcetera," Paglia said. Nothing... better defines the deadence of the West to the jihadists than our toleration of open homosexuality and this transgender mania now." WTF?

I wonder if Bruce Jenner even realized that Caitlyn would be a likely cause of the apocalypse.

I may be a jeans and T-shirt type female, and strictly dickly, but even I can tell you right now, she would be a good candidate for SRS because apparently, she needs a pair of balls.

Wait…wait just a minute.  She feels that sexual orientation is fluid. "People change, people grow, and people adapt."

Oh, shit!  I see…she’s glad that she didn’t stitch together some manhood because she discovered that she likes the dickens.  She’s bisexual, duh!

Ah, it all makes sense now.

"I'm happy that this talk about medical sex changes was not in the air, because I would have become obsessed with that and assumed that that was my entire identity and problem. This is why I'm very concerned about the rush to surgical interventions today."—Camile Paglia

Boy!  You sure know how to pick 'em.

Well, according to Camille’s standards, I am a mature woman.  Maybe you could ask Stryder to arrange a more age appropriate play-date for you.  

Thanks for playing.  

(Jan 3, 2017 08:03 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote:

(Jan 3, 2017 07:28 PM)Syne Wrote: And? You seem to think I've asserted that suicidality increases after GRS.

Nope. Only that it isn't sufficient.  

(Jan 3, 2017 02:12 AM)Syne Wrote: Even  though surgery  and  hormonal  therapy  alleviates  gender  dysphoria,  it  is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons.

This is something that we don’t know yet because the studies did not compare the pre- and post- surgery prevalence of mental health issues, nor was there a control group who had not received treatment or received other that genital surgery.

Minors certainly warrant further discussion, but let’s return to your video of Ms. Paglia for a moment, shall we?  There’s a few unresolved WTFs.

Yeah, we get it. You dislike Paglia. I have no reason to defend every little things she's said, and acting as if I've made those assertions myself is a strawman.

If it doesn't "remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons" then it isn't THE solution. You seem to keep asserting that it may help, but you have yet to offer anything supporting that.

Syne Wrote:Where are the study results that back up your claim that "increased media attention and online social networking, general awareness and acceptance of transgender issues" has had ANY impact on the rate of mental illness and suicidality among the transgendered? In order to claim that rejection is the sole cause, you have to have at least a strong positive correlation. As it stands, we only have an uncontrasted correlation that tells us zero about causation. In order to establish causation, you'd need a study showing that their suicidality and mental illness has improved relative to more acceptance.

Got anything like that?

Yep. It was in one of your links.

Oh, shit. You might have to actually read now.

Sorry.

If you can't find one, just say so. Don't expect others to look for support of your claims for you.