Bodily integrity vs moral responsibility

(Jan 2, 2017 06:40 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote:

(Jan 2, 2017 05:48 AM)Syne Wrote: Well, do you think parents should medicinally interrupt the normal developmental progress of their minor children?

I don’t know.  I read these articles, but I’ll have to do a little more reading, and give it some more thought.

[1][2][3]

Nite, Syne.

[1]"Treatment to delay puberty among adolescents struggling with gender identity seems to boost psychological well-being for those who ultimately pursue sex reassignment, new research suggests."

And even then, the long-term outlook is 40% rate of suicide.

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(Jan 2, 2017 07:02 AM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote:

(Jan 2, 2017 05:48 AM)Syne Wrote: Well, do you think parents should medicinally interrupt the normal developmental progress of their minor children?

what do you mean by "minor" ?
-Developmental progress, if the girl starts puberty at say age 8. should the parents intervene with drugs ?
should sexual education be a right for a child ?
does the child have a right ?
is denail of opportuunity to give consent to not be taught sex education be something that is positioned for an equalatative rational  ?
(if they have no right to demand sex education as a child then they have no ability to consent and that tends to subjectify the child to become the ideological play ground of the parent. though this already exists with things like religous education and religious schooling which has pervasive manipulation of the childs sexual development)

"Minor" is just to clarify not an adult. Why would doctors intervene to stop natural development?

Children are not considered capable of giving consent because they are not generally capable of understanding all the consequences of their choices. Once they do, they can find information for themselves...even if at the local library. Who else do you suppose is responsible for the child, other than the parents? The state?

Will you prioritize these for me, Syne?

Life
Freedom
Equality
Happiness
God

How important is consistency to you?

(Jan 2, 2017 05:21 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: Will you prioritize these for me, Syne?

Life
Freedom
Equality
Happiness
God

How important is consistency to you?

Really? Prioritize a seemingly arbitrary list without any context whatsoever? I'll pass.
Now if you want to give me a scenario or two in which the priorities of these is crucial, sure.

(Jan 2, 2017 07:51 PM)Syne Wrote: Really? Prioritize a seemingly arbitrary list without any context whatsoever? I'll pass.
Now if you want to give me a scenario or two in which the priorities of these is crucial, sure.

It’s simple really.  Here’s mine.

1. Life
2. Freedom
3. Equality
4. Happiness
5. God

Arbitrary?  Hardly.  They're plucked from one of the most well-known sentences on human rights.

(Jan 2, 2017 07:08 AM)Syne Wrote: [1]"Treatment to delay puberty among adolescents struggling with gender identity seems to boost psychological well-being for those who ultimately pursue sex reassignment, new research suggests."

And even then, the long-term outlook is 40% rate of suicide.

Where did you get that rate?  Do you have a source?

Is there a study that compares suicide rates of transgender people who had sex reassignment surgery vs. those who did not?

(Jan 2, 2017 09:06 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote:

(Jan 2, 2017 07:51 PM)Syne Wrote: Really? Prioritize a seemingly arbitrary list without any context whatsoever? I'll pass.
Now if you want to give me a scenario or two in which the priorities of these is crucial, sure.

It’s simple really.  Here’s mine.

1. Life
2. Freedom
3. Equality
4. Happiness
5. God

Arbitrary?  Hardly.  They're plucked from one of the most well-known sentences on human rights.

Barring a specific scenario or additional priorities, I would generally agree with that, including god being no priority at all.

Quote:

(Jan 2, 2017 07:08 AM)Syne Wrote: [1]"Treatment to delay puberty among adolescents struggling with gender identity seems to boost psychological well-being for those who ultimately pursue sex reassignment, new research suggests."

And even then, the long-term outlook is 40% rate of suicide.

Where did you get that rate?  Do you have a source?

Is there a study that compares suicide rates of transgender people who had sex reassignment surgery vs. those who did not?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/natio.../31626633/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tann...64834.html

You can easily find many more, and no one disputes the statistic.

"The Kaplan-Meier curve (Figure 1) suggests that survival of
transsexual persons started to diverge from that of matched controls
after about 10 years of follow-up. The cause-specific mortality from
suicide was much higher in sex-reassigned persons, compared to
matched controls."
- http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article...ne.0016885

(Jan 2, 2017 10:27 PM)Syne Wrote: Is there a study that compares suicide rates of transgender people who had sex reassignment surgery vs. those who did not?


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/natio.../31626633/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tann...64834.html

You can easily find many more, and no one disputes the statistic.

"The  Kaplan-Meier  curve   (Figure   1)   suggests  that   survival   of
transsexual persons started to diverge from that of matched controls
after about 10 years of follow-up. The cause-specific mortality from
suicide  was  much  higher  in  sex-reassigned  persons,  compared  to
matched  controls."
- http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article...ne.0016885

Most of them are comparing them to the general population. They're not comparing those who had sex reassignment surgery vs. those who did not.

From your links:

"Comparably high, or higher, prevalence of suicide attempts were found among respondents who said that they someday wanted FTM genital surgery, hysterectomy, or phalloplasty, suggesting that desiring transitionrelated health care services and procedures but not yet having them may exacerbate respondents’ distress at the incongruence between their gender identity and physical appearance. It is also possible that elevated prevalence of lifetime suicide attempts may be due to distress related to barriers to obtaining transitionrelated health care, such as a lack of insurance coverage, inability to afford the procedures, or lack of access to providers. These findings may also be related to the higher rates of reported lifetime suicide attempts among those who have undergone transition-related surgery. As has been noted, the NTDS instrument did not include questions about the timing of suicide attempts relative to transition, and thus we were unable to determine whether suicidal behavior is significantly reduced following transition-related surgeries."

The last one, the Swedish study, the author, Cecilia Dhejne, said that her work has been widely misrepresented.

"I’ve even seen professors use my work to support ridiculous claims. I’ve often had to respond myself by commenting on articles, speaking with journalists, and talking about this problem at conferences.

The Huffington Post wrote an article about the way my research is misrepresented. At the same time, I know of instances where ethical researchers and clinicians have used this study to expand and improve access to trans health care and impact systems of anti-trans oppression."

Of course trans medical and psychological care is efficacious. A 2010 meta-analysis confirmed by studies thereafter show that medical gender confirming interventions reduces gender dysphoria."

I'll keep looking.

I only mentioned the general suicide rate for transgenders. And where has it been established that gender dysphoria is the primary cause?

Since I only quoted the Swedish study, misrepresentation seems irrelevant here.

(Jan 3, 2017 12:18 AM)Syne Wrote: I only mentioned the general suicide rate for transgenders. And where has it been established that gender dysphoria is the primary cause?

Really?  Because one of your links implied that it was due to how they're treated.

"M.C. Lampe couldn't take any more bullying. Not one more homophobic taunt. Not one more classmate refusing to sit at a nearby desk or change clothes within view at gym. So the devastated 9th grader brought a knife to school and vowed: "If someone else says something, I'm done."

Someone did say something — and Lampe went to the high school bathroom and slit both wrists."

"It's not surprising they don't feel they belong in the world."

Syne Wrote:Since I only quoted the Swedish study, misrepresentation seems irrelevant here.

Really?  How so, because I asked you if you knew of any studies comparing suicide rates of transgender people who had sex reassignment surgery vs. those who did not?

(Jan 3, 2017 12:37 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote:

(Jan 3, 2017 12:18 AM)Syne Wrote: I only mentioned the general suicide rate for transgenders. And where has it been established that gender dysphoria is the primary cause?

Really?  Because one of your links implied that it was due to how they're treated.

"M.C. Lampe couldn't take any more bullying. Not one more homophobic taunt. Not one more classmate refusing to sit at a nearby desk or change clothes within view at gym. So the devastated 9th grader brought a knife to school and vowed: "If someone else says something, I'm done."

Someone did say something — and Lampe went to the high school bathroom and slit both wrists."

"It's not surprising they don't feel they belong in the world."

Is external treatment inherent to gender dysphoria? How would you propose we differentiate between feelings/problems caused directly by the dysphoria (or more likely of which dysphoria is also a symptom), and those caused by actual rejection?

Quote:

Syne Wrote:Since I only quoted the Swedish study, misrepresentation seems irrelevant here.

Really?  How so, because I asked you if you knew of any studies comparing suicide rates of transgender people who had sex reassignment surgery vs. those who did not?

Sorry, I assumed you could would read it for yourself.

"This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality,
death  from  cardiovascular  disease  and  suicide,  suicide  attempts,
and   psychiatric   hospitalisations   in   sex-reassigned   transsexual
individuals   compared   to   a   healthy   control   population.   This
highlights  that  post  surgical  transsexuals  are  a  risk  group  that
need  long-term  psychiatric  and  somatic  follow-up.  Even  though
surgery  and  hormonal  therapy  alleviates  gender  dysphoria,  it  is
apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and
mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the
transsexual  group  after  the sex  reassignment  should therefore  be
considered."
- http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article...ne.0016885

IOW, GRS does not alleviate suicidality, implying that the remarkably higher suicide rate among transgenders is not strongly correlated to body differing from subjective gender identity. This was the closest I've seen to answering your question.

(Jan 2, 2017 10:27 PM)Syne Wrote: [1]"Treatment to delay puberty among adolescents struggling with gender identity seems to boost psychological well-being for those who ultimately pursue sex reassignment, new research suggests."

And even then, the long-term outlook is 40% rate of suicide.

Studies in Canada, Europe, and the United States have reported suicide attempt prevalences within the trans population that range from 22 to 43 % over the lifetime and 9 to 10 % for the past year

http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com...015-1867-2

"attempted suicde" is different from a "Rate of Suicde"
your implied use of the statistics paints quite a differentpicture statistically.
you cant poll people who have comitted suice.
however, you can poll people who have attempted it.
supplanting "attempt" rates of survivors into "death rates" seems odd.