Quote:Yeah, bad choices. Are you saying they aren't capable of not getting pregnant before marriage or avoiding gang activity or drug use?
No..limited options due to poverty and raising. Like I already pointed out, they are disadvantaged by their raising and environment towards bad options which they are constantly exposed to unlike middle class white kids. It's the nature of the culture of poverty.
Again, are you saying that they are incapable of making good choices?
Yes, it is a culture of bad choices. A culture that you enable by devaluing their agency.
Quote:
Quote:No, I keep asserting that all people are equally capable. You're the one saying some people are incapable of simple things others can do.
These aren't simple things when you are raised in poverty. As I showed, many have to quit school to support their family. Many get involved in gangs and drugs. Many have kids out of wedlock. It's the culture of poverty once again. Our degree of freedom is predetermined by our conditions, both genetic and enviromental. We can only decide what is decideable within those preexistent constraining parameters.
Just bad choices...that you seem to think some minorities are incapable of avoiding.
Quote:Again, are you saying that they are incapable of making good choices?
No..because it's not about choosing. It's about having the same opportunities and support systems that white well off kids get as a matter of birthright.
Quote:Yes, it is a culture of bad choices. A culture that you enable by devaluing their agency.
Nope..it's being raised in a depriving culture of poverty that has nothing to do with choice.
Quote:Just bad choices...that you seem to think some minorities are incapable of avoiding.
It has nothing to do with choice. You can choose to better yourself all day but if you don't have the opportunities and motivation and knowledge and support to do so it won't matter a bit.
Quote:Again, are you saying that they are incapable of making good choices?
No..because it's not about choosing. It's about having the same opportunities and support systems that white well off kids get as a matter of birthright.
Again, you seem to be assuming only black kids are poor. Otherwise you'd have said "well off kids" instead of feeling the need to specify "white well off kids".
The only way it's not a matter of choosing is if you assume they can't.
Quote:
Quote:Yes, it is a culture of bad choices. A culture that you enable by devaluing their agency.
Nope..it's being raised in a depriving culture of poverty that has nothing to do with choice.
Again, the ONLY way it has "nothing to do with choice" is if you assume they can't make such choices.
Quote:
Quote:Just bad choices...that you seem to think some minorities are incapable of avoiding.
It has nothing to do with choice. You can choose to better yourself all day but if you don't have the opportunities and motivation and knowledge and support to do so it won't matter a bit.
People who succeed make their own opportunities, decide their own motivations, and seek out any necessary knowledge.
Again, only self-limiting beliefs, inculcated by being repeatedly told they can't help themselves and their choices don't matter, keep these out of reach.
So you just keep making excuses for why you not only assume but would actively teach, if given the vile opportunity, that their choices don't matter, they can't help themselves, and they are slaves to their circumstances...just like you prefer them to be.
Quote:People who succeed make their own opportunities, decide their own motivations, and seek out any necessary knowledge.
Again, only self-limiting beliefs, inculcated by being repeatedly told they can't help themselves and their choices don't matter, keep these out of reach.
No they don't. That's a big ass fairy tale. People rely on the priveleges society grants them and available opportunities and affordable education and money and connections and peer support of others to succeed in life. If you are a poor black kid raised in poverty you don't get these things. Choice or belief will not suddenly make you succeed. You need outside help to better yourself to counteract all the drawbacks from being raised in an impoverished neighborhood.And I've posted about 6 articles already showing the stunting effects of being raised in poverty. You have nothing left to argue here. Run along now.
Quote:People who succeed make their own opportunities, decide their own motivations, and seek out any necessary knowledge.
Again, only self-limiting beliefs, inculcated by being repeatedly told they can't help themselves and their choices don't matter, keep these out of reach.
No they don't. That's a big ass fairy tale. People rely on the priveleges society grants them and available opportunities and affordable education and money and connections and peer support of others to succeed in life. If you are a poor black kid raised in poverty you don't get these things. Choice or belief will not suddenly make you succeed. You need outside help to better yourself to counteract all the drawbacks from being raised in an impoverished neighborhood.And I've posted about 6 articles already showing the stunting effects of being raised in poverty. You have nothing left to argue here. Run along now.
No one denies the culture of bad decisions in poverty. But your kind of help actually keeps them in poverty...right where you seem to like them.
The only solution to bad decisions is good ones. But you don't even credit them with enough agency to make such decisions.
I do, because I think they're as capable as anyone else.
It's long past time you quit peddling your narcissistic and implicitly racist views here.
Quote:No one denies the culture of bad decisions in poverty. But your kind of help actually keeps them in poverty...right where you seem to like them.
I'm the one advancing help for those in poverty thru govt subsidies, low income housing, medicaid, job training, pell grants, social security disability, unemployment insurance payments, earned income tax credits, food stamps, afterschool programs, head start, and so on. That's not keeping them in poverty. It's getting them out of it:
Quote:I do, because I think they're as capable as anyone else.
Yeah..you're really quite proud of yourself aren't you, blaming their poverty on them being too lazy or unmotivated to pull themselves out of it. Remember, you're the alt right racist here looking for excuses to demean minorities, not me. I'm saying it's nobody's fault that they're in poverty and can't get out of it. There's noone to blame, and there's everything to gain from helping them out of their dire situation:
"Since the Great Depression, the United States has developed a set of supports to help low-income families, seniors, children, and people with disabilities make ends meet and obtain health care. Extensive research indicates that these supports lift millions of Americans out of poverty, help “make work pay” by supplementing low wages, and enable millions of Americans to receive health care who otherwise could not afford it.
To be sure, the United States still has a higher poverty rate than many other advanced countries, and many Americans reach adulthood without the tools they need to succeed in the workforce. Various programs and policies, especially in areas such as job training and education, could be reformed and strengthened. But the claim that advocates of shrinking government sometimes make that public efforts to reduce poverty and hardship have failed is belied by the evidence."
Quote:No one denies the culture of bad decisions in poverty. But your kind of help actually keeps them in poverty...right where you seem to like them.
I'm the one advancing help for those in poverty thru govt subsidies, low income housing, medicaid, job training, pell grants, social security disability, unemployment insurance payments, earned income tax credits, food stamps, afterschool programs, head start, and so on. That's not keeping them in poverty. It's getting them out of it:
Then why has poverty remained relatively stagnate for decades? Because those measures don't work.
They don't do anything to change the culture of bad decisions. And those lifted out of poverty must continue to be aided or they will slip right back into poverty. It doesn't change anything but the symptom of poverty. A real solution wouldn't require the constant and increasing aide to be maintained. The aide just keeps people from finding the incentive to better themselves, and perversely, actually incentivizes staying on such aide (since it pays better than entry-level jobs).
Quote:
Quote:I do, because I think they're as capable as anyone else.
Yeah..you're really quite proud of yourself aren't you, blaming their poverty on them being too lazy or unmotivated to pull themselves out of it. Remember, you're the alt right racist here looking for excuses to demean minorities, not me. I'm saying it's nobody's fault that they're in poverty and can't get out of it. There's noone to blame, and there's everything to gain from helping them out of their dire situation:
You're the only one here claiming minority choices don't matter. As if they lack the agency of all other people. You're the only one here who repeatedly equates "lazy", "unmotivated", poor, criminal, helpless, etc. specifically with blacks. You're the narcissist looking to impugn others to justify your racist views. You don't even understand the difference between blame and responsibility. You blame others to avoid your own responsibility. You may not be to blame for your circumstances, because you are not responsible for the actions of others, but you are responsible for how you react to those circumstances...the choices you make.
Quote:Then why has poverty remained relatively stagnate for decades? Because those measures don't work.
Now you're just lying. I just posted 2 reports on how those measures lift millions out of poverty level every year. To claim otherwise is just ignorant.
Quote:You blame others to avoid your own responsibility. You may not be to blame for your circumstances, because you are not responsible for the actions of others, but you are responsible for how you react to those circumstances...the choices you make.
You're just repeating the same debunked assertions over and over again. So I'll repeat my counterargument until you get it:
Decisions maybe. But even decisions are prelimited by the options that are available. A middle class white kid has more options than a poor black kid. And the poor black kid is confronted with more bad options, like joining a gang or selling drugs or crime due the depriving environment he is born into and raised in. Our degree of freedom is predetermined by our conditions, both genetic and environmental. We can only decide what is decideable within those preexistent constraining parameters.
People rely on the privileges society grants them and available opportunities and affordable education and money and connections and peer support of others to succeed in life. If you are a poor black kid raised in poverty you don't get these things. Choice or belief will not suddenly make you succeed. You need outside help to better yourself to counteract all the drawbacks from being raised in an impoverished neighborhood.And I've posted about 6 articles already showing the stunting effects of being raised in poverty. You have nothing left to argue here. Run along now
Quote:You're the only one here who repeatedly equates "lazy", "unmotivated", poor, criminal, helpless, etc. specifically with blacks.
No..that's your claim. That the only reason blacks aren't making these allegedly easy choices to get out of poverty is because they have some character flaw like laziness or undermotivation. That way see you can continue to look down on them as losers in keeping with the racist stereotypes of your rightwing racist tradition. It's all very clever, but it's still just another form of racism.My position, which I backed up with 6 studies, proves that the culture of poverty takes away the choices that are available to others and deprives them of opportunities that would enable them to get out of it. And that's not even going into the impediment of racism and discrimination that they have to encounter every day.
Early Childhood Poverty Damages Brain Development, Study Finds
Poverty affected growth in parts of the brain involved in stress regulation, emotion processing and memory.
The Concentration of Poverty in American Schools
An exclusive analysis uncovers that students of color in the largest 100 cities in the United States are much more likely to attend schools where most of their peers are poor or low-income.
Quote:Then why has poverty remained relatively stagnate for decades? Because those measures don't work.
Now you're just lying. I just posted 2 reports on how those measures lift millions out of poverty level every year. To claim otherwise is just ignorant.
The numbers have been increasing for decades, while the percent has remained fairly stagnant.
Quote:
Quote:You blame others to avoid your own responsibility. You may not be to blame for your circumstances, because you are not responsible for the actions of others, but you are responsible for how you react to those circumstances...the choices you make.
You're just repeating the same debunked assertions over and over again. So I'll repeat my counterargument until you get it:
Decisions maybe. But even decisions are prelimited by the options that are available. A middle class white kid has more options than a poor black kid. And the poor black kid is confronted with more bad options, like joining a gang or selling drugs or crime due the depriving environment he is born into and raised in. Our degree of freedom is predetermined by our conditions, both genetic and environmental. We can only decide what is decideable within those preexistent constraining parameters.
Nonsense. If "decisions are prelimited (sic)", how do you explain the many success stories from poverty? Hint: it ain't due to welfare.
You know what maintains ghettos that are rife with gangs and drugs? Democrats whose cities have the highest income inequality, most racial segregation, and believe in policies that lead to de-policing black neighborhoods. Oh, and you pandering to their victim mentality by denying their agency.
Quote:Choice or belief will not suddenly make you succeed.
Straw man. Who said anything about it being "suddenly"?
Quote:
Quote:You're the only one here who repeatedly equates "lazy", "unmotivated", poor, criminal, helpless, etc. specifically with blacks.
No..that's your claim. That the only reason blacks aren't making these allegedly easy choices to get out of poverty is because they have some character flaw like laziness or undermotivation. That way see you can continue to look down on them as losers in keeping with the racist stereotypes of your rightwing racist tradition. It's all very clever, but it's still just another form of racism.My position, which I backed up with 6 studies, proves that the culture of poverty takes away the choices that are available to others and deprives them of opportunities that would enable them to get out of it. And that's not even going into the impediment of racism and discrimination that they have to encounter every day.
No, go re-read this thread. You will find that it's ONLY YOU that keeps making those connections. Sure, you do it as a straw man, but nonetheless.
I have repeatedly said the problem is cultural, and you've even agreed that there is a culture of poverty.
I think they can overcome that culture. You're the one who insists they cannot help themselves but be gang members, drug users, single mothers, poor, etc.. Your position is centered on policies that maintain that culture.
Federal lifeline programs have helped keep millions out of poverty, U.S. Census data shows.
Social Security payments lifted 21.4 million people -- including 14.5 million senior citizens -- over the poverty line in 2011, while unemployment benefits prevented 2.3 million Americans from falling into poverty.
The Census Bureau doesn't take into account non-cash benefits, such as food stamps and the Earned Income Tax Credit, when it measures income. But it calculates how these programs would have helped keep poverty in check.
Food stamps would have lifted 3.9 million people -- 1.7 million of them children -- out of poverty had that aid been counted as income. And the Earned Income Tax Credit, a refundable federal credit for low- to moderate-income working Americans, would have kept 5.7 million people, including 3.1 million children, above the poverty line.
Government assistance programs have come under attack as the federal deficit swells and state budgets remain squeezed in the aftermath of the Great Recession. However, they are vital to helping the poor survive, experts said.
That's why poverty advocates are particularly concerned about potential changes to the safety net. Unemployment benefits have already been scaled back and could be cut further if Congress does not extend the deadline to file for federal benefits beyond year's end.
In 2010, unemployment benefits kept 3.2 million people out of poverty. That number was lower last year because some people got jobs. But others ran out of benefits, experts said.
Experts on both sides of the ideological aisle say the Census statistics don't accurately reflect poverty in America because it overlooks non-cash public aid such as food stamps. The Census Bureau has tried to address this issue by creating an alternative measure of poverty that takes this aid into account. But it also factors in expenses, such as medical costs, child care and income taxes.
Under this system, which debuted last November, the national poverty rate stood at 16%. Census will update this figure later this fall.
Many government assistance programs are running at or near record enrollments. The number of people receiving food stamps hit an all-time high of 46.7 million in June.
Republicans are intent on curtailing certain programs to address the nation's debt problem. Paul Ryan, the GOP vice presidential candidate, has said he would turn Medicaid and food stamps into block grants and let the states manage them. Advocates for the poor fear that this would greatly limit funding for these programs.
Other lifeline initiatives, such as housing subsidies and heating assistance, could be slashed if Congress doesn't find a way to avoid sequestration, a series of automatic federal spending cuts that begin next year.
"Efforts to reduce poverty need not conflict with efforts to reduce budget deficits," said Robert Greenstein, president of the left-leaning Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.
Quote: If "decisions are prelimited (sic)", how do you explain the many success stories from poverty? Hint: it ain't due to welfare.
How do you know if these people didn't receive some form of govt aid during their life in poverty? Do you have the statistics?
Quote:You know what maintains ghettos that are rife with gangs and drugs? Democrats whose cities have the highest income inequality, most racial segregation, and believe in policies that lead to de-policing black neighborhoods. Oh, and you pandering to their victim mentality by denying their agency.
It's only a victim mentality if you aren't a victim to things like racism and crime and sickness due to no health care and single parenting and the overall debilitating culture of poverty.
Quote:You will find that it's ONLY YOU that keeps making those connections. Sure, you do it as a straw man, but nonetheless.
I have repeatedly said the problem is cultural, and you've even agreed that there is a culture of poverty.
No..it's all you. Now we are to believe minorities are so stupid and naturally lethargic that they are duped by sinister liberals into inaction thru their devoting so much time and money and effort to trying to get them out of poverty. Watching where your racism pops up next is like playing wack a mole! lol!
Mar 9, 2018 06:54 AM
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