Today I Found Out…

(Aug 7, 2017 04:03 AM)Syne Wrote: You sound pretty blase about the distinction.

The distinction between what, Syne?

Exactly.

(Aug 11, 2017 11:36 PM)Syne Wrote: Exactly.

I just wanted to hear you say it.

I’m a good friend, Syne.  You might find that hard to believe, but I am.  

You did provide some food for thought, though.

Imagine that CC and I are friends. I notice a dark spot on her cheek.  I’m a little concerned.  I tell her that maybe she should start wearing a little sunscreen.

Now, imagine that I’m a beauty consultant selling Mary Kay products.  I say to C C, "I have the perfect product to cover up that ugly brown spot."  Am I really showing any concern for C C or am I just trying to earn that iconic pink Cadillac?  Not only am I trying to earn that pink Cadillac, but I'm also pointing out that her brown spot is ugly, and that she should try to hide it.  

I can easily befriend Christians—never viewing them as enemies because I don’t have a system on how to live.  I’m not selling anything.  I’m just not buying it.

But can they be friends with me?

How not to be a Christian around your atheist friends

Should Christians Be Friends with Non-Christians (Unbelievers)

"In the scriptures, it is very clear that we are to NOT have the very close types of relationships with those who have NO interest in God’s will, or even close associations with so called "Christians" living in unrepentant sin. When we develop close relationships with those who reject God, we risk being influenced in a negative way. We risk being associated with certain ideology or beliefs that the other person may have."

This woman seems a little more rational, but still…

"When I see my friend – my sweet, wonderful, beautiful friend who just happens to be an Atheist – I’m going to hug her. We’ll sit and talk. We’ll share. We’ll peel off the labels and dig deep in the heart. She’s going to get my love, my respect, and my prayers that Jesus will one day move in her life. Because that’s what’s important."

Today I found out...once again, just how nice it is to have a horse in the yard that I can just saddle up and hit the trails without doing preliminary exercises.

I train a lot of young horses and with them, it is very important to have a bit of routine to ascertain that they are paying attention to their lesson as they lack life experience and need this support. After enough miles and wet saddle pads and occasional pulse accelerating moments, the horse reaches a point where you both have a certain level of confidence in each other.

This usually happens somewhere between 5-8 years, depending on how much opportunity you get to work together. I have had one or two mounts that were virtually bomb-proof by 4 years but that was when I was showing and practically lived in the stable with them, lol.

I can hardly believe that I almost sold this mare earlier this year but the fates intervened to change that. She is a bit of a character but definitely of a good sort.

(Aug 12, 2017 10:10 PM)scheherazade Wrote: She is a bit of a character but definitely of a good sort.

Sounds a little bit like me.

I have a friend that owns five horses. She’s keeps them on this beautiful ranch overlooking the valley. She always needs help. You help out and she’ll let you ride whenever you like. You should see how beautiful they are when you first open the gate when they all coming running out together. Better to have friends with horses, though. It gets expensive. She used to do rodeos and would travel all over by herself.

She wanted me to help her daughter with math one year. I said that I would, if she’d teach me how to back up a trailer. I had to drive one home a few years earlier. I thought I could do it as long as I made sure that I drove in a straight line and didn’t put myself in a position where I’d have to back up. Easier said than done. Oh my god, I was so embarrassed. I had to ask a man. My idea of parallel parking is to drive around the block until a spot in the front opens up. I still don’t have it down pat but it’s on my bucket list.

(Aug 12, 2017 01:47 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: I can easily befriend Christians—never viewing them as enemies because I don’t have a system on how to live.  I’m not selling anything.  I’m just not buying it.

But can they be friends with me?

Should Christians Be Friends with Non-Christians (Unbelievers)

"In the scriptures, it is very clear that we are to NOT have the very close types of relationships with those who have NO interest in God’s will, or even close associations with so called "Christians" living in unrepentant sin. When we develop close relationships with those who reject God, we risk being influenced in a negative way. We risk being associated with certain ideology or beliefs that the other person may have."

This woman seems a little more rational, but still…

"When I see my friend – my sweet, wonderful, beautiful friend who just happens to be an Atheist – I’m going to hug her. We’ll sit and talk. We’ll share. We’ll peel off the labels and dig deep in the heart. She’s going to get my love, my respect, and my prayers that Jesus will one day move in her life. Because that’s what’s important."

It's not necessarily about Christians selling anything, since many hold their beliefs to be personal and don't proselytize. You can't even accuse the ones who do of doing so for any real or immediate personal gain (unlike your Mary Kay analogy).

The question of whether they should be friends with atheists isn't even necessarily about the Bible. Any wise and rational adult tends to realize that "you are the company you keep" (Proverbs 13:20). The lazy, ignorant, and evil pull down the productive, intelligent, and good, but it's very rare that ever works in reverse. It only does where few people of lesser character, intelligence, etc. are surrounded by many of greater.

Maybe you keep these friends because you already know that. And if they outnumber the atheists they keep as friends, they're fairly well insulated against your influence on them.


BTW, you friends seem to have quoted The Message Bible.

(Aug 13, 2017 01:50 AM)Syne Wrote: The question of whether they should be friends with atheists isn't even necessarily about the Bible. Any wise and rational adult tends to realize that "you are the company you keep" (Proverbs 13:20). The lazy, ignorant, and evil pull down the productive, intelligent, and good, but it's very rare that ever works in reverse. It only does where few people of lesser character, intelligence, etc. are surrounded by many of greater.

That's an associative stigma.

Birds of a Feather Flock Together 

"This is especially true when a relationship appears to be voluntary as in the case of friends and partners. An individual in the company of a stigmatized person is judged on his or her decision to be in the company of that person. Heider reasons that this tendency may be due to a need to eliminate cognitive dissonance. The assumption two people in the company of one another share similar characteristics is easier on the mind than having to reconcile the ideas that they might be markedly different yet opt for each other’s company." [1]

Syne Wrote:BTW, you friends seem to have quoted The Message Bible.

Thanks.

(Aug 13, 2017 02:49 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote:

(Aug 13, 2017 01:50 AM)Syne Wrote: The question of whether they should be friends with atheists isn't even necessarily about the Bible. Any wise and rational adult tends to realize that "you are the company you keep" (Proverbs 13:20). The lazy, ignorant, and evil pull down the productive, intelligent, and good, but it's very rare that ever works in reverse. It only does where few people of lesser character, intelligence, etc. are surrounded by many of greater.

That's an associative stigma.

Birds of a Feather Flock Together 

"This is especially true when a relationship appears to be voluntary as in the case of friends and partners. An individual in the company of a stigmatized person is judged on his or her decision to be in the company of that person. Heider reasons that this tendency may be due to a need to eliminate cognitive dissonance. The assumption two people in the company of one another share similar characteristics is easier on the mind than having to reconcile the ideas that they might be markedly different yet opt for each other’s company." [1]

That's odd. Why would you leap to how others would judge people associating with a stigmatized person? People don't have to be socially stigmatized to be a worse influence than others. Someone who simply whines a lot, but is otherwise a quite upstanding person, will rub off on those with which they associate. It's primarily about how the relationship effects you...not about how any outside party may view it.

The same mirroring system that helps you form in-group associations also ensures that you do take on qualities of those associates.

(Aug 13, 2017 06:31 PM)Syne Wrote: The same mirroring system that helps you form in-group associations also ensures that you do take on qualities of those associates.

Hmm...I don't think that's always the case.  While I can empathize with someone, it doesn't necessarily mean that I have to agree with their assessment of any given situation.

If that were the case, you’d simply surround yourself with people who only provide a positive reflection of yourself.  You might prefer that type of relationship but that’s not the type of friendship that I’m attracted to.

I'm my own person.

Thanks.

Edit*

You did help in a roundabout way, though.

(Aug 13, 2017 06:31 PM)Syne Wrote: It's primarily about how the relationship affects you.

Instead explaining the difference between pity and empathy, I’ll just tell them the truth.  It worked when one of them was always late.  I told her that it made me feel like she thought her time was more valuable than mine.  She’s been on time ever since.

I’ll tell them the same thing that I told you. 

(Aug 7, 2017 03:31 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: I just don’t like them thinking that they’re more righteous or better than me.  You know, like you do.

"I don’t like when you bring up your religion, when you know full well that I am an atheist. It makes me feel like you think you’re superior and it’s arrogant."

It’s a bit harsher, but it’s the truth.

(Aug 13, 2017 07:05 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote:

(Aug 13, 2017 06:31 PM)Syne Wrote: The same mirroring system that helps you form in-group associations also ensures that you do take on qualities of those associates.

Hmm...I don't think that's always the case.  While I can empathize with someone, it doesn't necessarily mean that I have to agree with their assessment of any given situation.

If that were the case, you’d simply surround yourself with people who only provide a positive reflection of yourself.  You might prefer that type of relationship but that’s not the type of friendship that I’m attracted to.

I'm my own person.

Thanks, though.

Again, that's odd. Why do you keep focusing on external judgement and reflections of yourself? Is your loci of identity just that external? That would seem to be at odds with "I'm my own person". Doth she protest too much?

As discussed elsewhere, outgroup empathy can be learned and doesn't necessarily imply any mirroring. But we're talking about friends here. These are manifestly ingroup, which means there already exists some degree of agreement. But it is a false dilemma to assume that some agreement predisposes you to "agree with their assessment of any given situation." Mirroring is more about attitudes and action than it is specific agreement. Being part of the limbic system, mirroring has to do with emotion, motivation, learning, ect..

My friends are people I admire and respect....not for any positive feedback they provide about me, but for their own qualities. Not how they make me feel. I don't know. Maybe you like associating with people you feel you can brow beat. Makes you feel good about yourself. I'd rather have people I can't brow beat...even if I tried.