(Jan 19, 2019 01:57 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]Can't be helped if you can't follow basic reasoning.(Jan 18, 2019 02:56 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, that's my point. We know that yours was clearly speaking outside of his field, but the same cannot be said of mine. Not discernible with available info implies nonexistent, while not discernible without any available info is inconclusive.
Instead of backpedaling, I'd suggest dog paddling at this point because you're drowning in your own BS.
Quote:My sourse had a Ph.D. in psychology. Thank you very much.Yes, psychology doesn't even entail as much natural science as psychiatry.
Quote:But if you don't like that one....So...only an abstract from an ethologist, where I can't examine his arguments or evidence? As such, it's just an appeal to authority.
Quote:It is often assumed that animals do not have sex for pleasure, or alternatively that humans, pigs, bonoboes (and perhaps dolphins and one or two more species of primates) are the only species that do. This is sometimes stated as "animals mate only for reproduction". This view is considered a misconception by some scholars. [1] [2]
But:
Individual reproduction is the most important phase in the proliferation of individuals or genes within a species: for this reason, there exist complex mating rituals, which can be very complex even if they are often regarded as fixed action patterns.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethology#M..._supremacy
Jonathan Balcombe argues that the prevalence of non-reproductive sexual behaviour in certain species suggests that sexual stimulation is pleasurable. He also points to the presence of the clitoris in some female mammals, and evidence for female orgasm in primates. On the other hand, it is impossible to know the subjective feelings of animals, and the notion that non-human animals experience emotions similar to humans is a contentious subject.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sex...r#Pleasure
If that's the crux of his contention, it's a non-starter. Behaviors evolved to serve a biological imperative can, over time, come to serve other purposes. And I haven't once denied that sexual stimulation wasn't pleasurable for animals, just in case that straw man may be lurking.
Exaptation (Stephen Jay Gould and Elisabeth Vrba's proposed replacement for what he considered the teleologically-loaded term "pre-adaptation") and the related term co-option describe a shift in the function of a trait during evolution. For example, a trait can evolve because it served one particular function, but subsequently it may come to serve another. Exaptations are common in both anatomy and behaviour.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaptation
Quote:And if you're so found of evolutionary psychology...Really? Another psychologist?
Quote:Almost everyone misunderstands the theory. Contrary to popular belief, the gene-centered theory of evolution does not imply that the point of all human striving is to spread our genes. With the exception of the fertility doctor who artificially inseminated patients with his own semen, the donors to the sperm bank for Nobel Prize winners, and other kooks, no human being (or animal) strives to spread his or her genes.—How the Mind Works by Steven Pinker
Quote:Homosexuality isn’t going against some grand design. It isn’t unnatural.
Animals have sex for all sorts of reasons, pleasure being one of them, and so do we, but we’re the only creature that’s aware of the consequences.
We’re wired for copulatory behavior, aka SEX. You are accusing me of being anthropomorphic but you’re doing it on a much larger scale, sweetie. Evolution doesn’t have a grand scheme, silly boy. It doesn’t work that way. Natural selection doesn’t even necessarily promote behaviors that are good for the species as a whole. That’s a common misconception, as well. Evolution doesn’t have foresight, intentions, or a purpose.
Who said there was any "grand design"?
High rates of addiction, depression, and suicide aren't exactly echoed in the animal kingdom, if that's your yardstick for what's natural.
Animals also do not display any homosexual orientation.
Like sexually-reproducing species that don't experience sexual pleasure, the reproductive drive evolved isolated from a pleasure-seeking reward system. The pleasure-seeking sex drive was an exaptation of the reproductive drive, but the underlying biological imperative is still what buoys the behavior.
Half the people surveyed by the Japanese Family Planning Association said they hadn't gone to the bone zone in the past month. Some guys claimed that they didn't even masturbate anymore. What's going on?
...
When you do that, the numbers seem to show a steady decline in sex drive over time. As of 2012, 36 percent of teenage men and 59 percent of teenage women (a supposedly universally hormone addled population) expressed no interest or were actively turned off by sex—a 19 and 12 percent increase over 2008 numbers, respectively. (A later 2013 survey appears to show lower levels of sexual disinterest, but the numbers examine a different age bracket and therefore aren't really comparable, especially since part of the celibacy narrative is that it's more marked in the younger generations.) The same year, another survey by the Japanese Association for Sex Education found that sexual activity in university girls had gone down to 47 percent, a 60 percent drop since 2005. One statistician has created a series of graphs, looking for the origins of this trend, which show just how much lower the nation's collective sex drive is than other nations'.
...
The most convincing explanation for the trend offered thus far may be one of widespread cultural pressures and changing life desires amongst Japan's youth. Commentators make the point that still-extant social norms about modesty and purity make it difficult to navigate flings or casual sex, leading some to see it as a fraught hassle.
- https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/7b7y8...ucking-361
So moving away from the social mores that promote marriage and reproduction seems to of had a marked impact on their national sex drive. IOW, rejection of reproduction seems to lead to a reduction in the sex drive...evidenced on a massive scale. And it's not just Japan:
Why Americans are having less sex
Today, sex seems more available to us than ever before. With just a swipe on their phones, singles can schedule their next hookup, while committed couples have an apparent "sure thing" every night. This is also known as "the marriage advantage."
Why, then, are Americans having less sex than they were 20 years ago, not more?
According to a 2017 study published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, the large general social survey (GSS) found that American adults had sex about nine fewer times per year in the early 2010s than they did in the late 1990s, a decline that wasn't explained by longer work hours or increased use of pornography.
Quote:Do you have an urge to donate your sperm?
No, because the reproductive drive, at least in humans, isn't about indiscriminately producing offspring. It includes safeguarding the survival of our fragile young to ensure our genes make it beyond just our children. Anonymous children do not satisfy that biological instinct.