Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

(Jan 20, 2019 02:23 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Again, do you really believe that's healthy or good for society? Do you really think those are "fit" individuals? O_o
An appeal to the masses doesn't make it good for a species.

It's not a moral issue. Evolution doesn't care about the species.

Syne Wrote:And you missed the next sentence:

Has there been an uptick in lesbianism for the lonely girls?

IOW, are the women happy to be alone or consoling each other, with the men looking elsewhere?

The Japanese are not just sleeping with prostitutes and dolls. They’re having extramarital affairs and so are the women. Our birth rates are dropping, too, but everyone is still having plenty of sex. One thing that I did find interesting, though, is that the birth control pill wasn’t legal in Japan until 1999. However, Japan was the first country to legalize abortion in 1948 due to overpopulation. It’s difficult to find accurate stats but it looks like their abortion rates are still pretty high.

Syne Wrote:Silly girl, evolutionary needs are not the needs or desires of something out there called evolution. They are the needs of individuals and species shaped by the process of evolution. Sad that this has to be spelled out for you.

It seems that I'm the one that has to keep reminding you of this.

Syne Wrote:Human reason can control many of our baser instincts. And?

Obviously, but we don't have an instinct to reproduce.

Syne Wrote:The biological and instinctual differences ensure no such role reversal. But you can dream.

We'll see.

(Jan 21, 2019 02:35 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jan 20, 2019 02:23 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Again, do you really believe that's healthy or good for society? Do you really think those are "fit" individuals? O_o
An appeal to the masses doesn't make it good for a species.

It's not a moral issue. Evolution doesn't care about the species.

I didn't ask evolution; I asked you. And what does what's healthy or good for society have to do with morality?
Again, evolution is only a process. It is the individual and species that care about survival fitness.

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Syne Wrote:And you missed the next sentence:

Has there been an uptick in lesbianism for the lonely girls?

IOW, are the women happy to be alone or consoling each other, with the men looking elsewhere?

The Japanese are not just sleeping with prostitutes and dolls. They’re having extramarital affairs and so are the women. Our birth rates are dropping, too, but everyone is still having plenty of sex. One thing that I did find interesting, though, is that the birth control pill wasn’t legal in Japan until 1999. However, Japan was the first country to legalize abortion in 1948 due to overpopulation. It’s difficult to find accurate stats but it looks like their abortion rates are still pretty high.

No one said they were only sleeping with dolls and prostitutes.
Any data on those extramarital affairs other than your ad hoc comparison to our society that isn't suffering anywhere near the same drop in birthrate? O_o
I already cited a link to their abort rates, and they're nowhere near ours: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/a...japan.html
For 2015, Japan had 176,388, while England and Wales had 185,824 that same year, and 62 million more people live in Japan. The US has 638,169 that same year, and has about 2.59 time the population. 176,388*2.59=~456,845 So, unless you can find a better country to compare them to, they have a relatively much lower abortion rate.

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Syne Wrote:Silly girl, evolutionary needs are not the needs or desires of something out there called evolution. They are the needs of individuals and species shaped by the process of evolution. Sad that this has to be spelled out for you.

It seems that I'm the one that has to keep reminding you of this.

No, you just keep making the same stupid straw man.

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Syne Wrote:Human reason can control many of our baser instincts. And?

Obviously, but we don't have an instinct to reproduce.

Proclaims the true believer.

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Syne Wrote:The biological and instinctual differences ensure no such role reversal. But you can dream.

We'll see.

If you had half a clue, you wouldn't want to find out what happens when women try to take on a masculine role without the same physical strength advantage. Too much girl power fiction, I guess.

FWIW my mother was keen for me (+Mrs C2) to provide grandchildren, even accusing us of selfishness for not doing so. When she was a young women's libber my sister claimed it was unreasonable to assume females would want to have children but ultimately hatched two.

(Jan 21, 2019 06:57 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]If you had half a clue, you wouldn't want to find out what happens when women try to take on a masculine role without the same physical strength advantage. Too much girl power fiction, I guess.  

I was going to go with the gender gap in higher education but…

(Jul 20, 2018 05:40 PM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jul 20, 2018 02:37 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ][...] They didn’t think of them as equals simply because when push comes to shove, they can overpower them.

Yep. "Wisdom The private reason oft comes from the mouth of babes."

Secular Sanity Wrote:Nakamura Hiroshi was discussing the impact that losing the war and the occupation of Japan had on masculinity. The Japanese soldiers were characterized as infantile and emasculated.  He used metaphors to depict empowered masculinity, e.g. trains, planes, etc. They represented masculinity as a more of a movement rather than focusing on the male body (phallus) or physical prowess.

We’ve learned to appreciate you for more than your sexual or physical prowess. We also admire your kindness and your ingenuity. Can men say the same?

Gender roles are nothing more than a script, Syne. Girls are weak and men are strong.

Me! Me! Me, too! It shouldn’t have been all about us.  

My father cooked breakfast every morning. His father did the same. He took me shopping for my prom dress. He brushed my hair when I was little. My grandfather was big, strong, and tough. When my mother became pregnant with my brother, he was the one that told my father, "Enough is enough. You need to accept the responsibility." My grandparents raised ten children. They worked side by side on their farm. My grandmother was strong, physically and mentally. My mother was clever. She asked my grandmother to babysit, but my grandmother was even wiser. She handed me off to my father. Even if it turns out that he’s not my biological father, I’ll be grateful to have been raised by a man with a capacity to love.

The traditional values of being the "stronger" sex is not without cost. We talk a lot about how the qualities that you seek, e.g. beauty, youth, and fertility increase our risk of being raped but we never discuss how the qualities that we seek, e.g. strength, courage, and power increases your risk of death and war. One of the number one reasons for male suicide is unemployment coupled with the fear to disclose any vulnerabilities.

You know…you’re the only man here that hasn’t shared your fears, insecurities, or struggles. That, too, takes strength and courage. It should have been the You & I movement.

P.S. Being homosexual doesn’t make you less of a person.

(Jan 21, 2019 05:01 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jan 21, 2019 06:57 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]If you had half a clue, you wouldn't want to find out what happens when women try to take on a masculine role without the same physical strength advantage. Too much girl power fiction, I guess.  

I was going to go with the gender gap in higher education but…

Whoa, is higher education a masculine role?!! O_O

STEM maybe, but I would have never thought that of all higher education in general.
Maybe you'd be smarter to reference the gender pay gap instead, where there could be a role reversal, but without presuming being uneducated is a feminine role. O_o
And even there, our evolutionary psychology doesn't really distinguish income from the perception of status. So that would be apt to hurt fragile male egos more than fundamentally change the dynamics between the genders.

Quote:Gender roles are nothing more than a script, Syne. Girls are weak and men are strong.

That's a physical reality, not a script. Again, you must have imbibed too much girl power fiction.

Quote:Me! Me! Me, too! It shouldn’t have been all about us.  

My father cooked breakfast every morning. His father did the same. He took me shopping for my prom dress. He brushed my hair when I was little. My grandfather was big, strong, and tough. When my mother became pregnant with my brother, he was the one that told my father, "Enough is enough. You need to accept the responsibility." My grandparents raised ten children. They worked side by side on their farm. My grandmother was strong, physically and mentally. My mother was clever. She asked my grandmother to babysit, but my grandmother was even wiser. She handed me off to my father. Even if it turns out that he’s not my biological father, I’ll be grateful to have been raised by a man with a capacity to love.

False dilemma. Being physically stronger is not mutually exclusive with the capacity to love or show caring. Many fathers, especially of girls, end up doing many less than stereotypically manly things for/with them. And regardless of how strong your grandmother was, you're grandfather was doubtlessly stronger.

Quote:The traditional values of being the "stronger" sex is not without cost. We talk a lot about how the qualities that you seek, e.g. beauty, youth, and fertility increase our risk of being raped but we never discuss how the qualities that we seek, e.g. strength, courage, and power increases your risk of death and war. One of the number one reasons for male suicide is unemployment coupled with the fear to disclose any vulnerabilities.

You know…you’re the only man here that hasn’t shared your fears, insecurities, or struggles. That, too, takes strength and courage. It should have been the You & I movement.

War is not a direct result of women seeking strength, courage...well, maybe power.

I know this is completely outside of your reality, but I don't have many fears, insecurities, or struggles. Those things are very often more a consequence of our own outlook than any real threat, instability, or obstacle. And people often even create them with their own dreaded self-fulfilling prophecies. And there's a huge difference between not disclosing vulnerabilities and not experiencing them.

Quote:P.S. Being homosexual doesn’t make you less of a person.

Who said they were?! O_o
This is just another sad and transparent attempt to demonize someone you simple don't agree with. I'm guessing you really can't help it. If you hate people who disagree with you, you can only assume that anyone who disagrees MUST hate the person. It's a sad reality to live in, and luckily I don't.



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(Jan 21, 2019 06:21 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Whoa, is higher education a masculine role?!! O_O

At one time it was but I was insinuating, not just a pay gap, but breadwinners.

Syne Wrote:That's a physical reality, not a script. Again, you must have imbibed too much girl power fiction.  

Enough with the girl power. It doesn't take much force to break a bone just skill and I have that. You might be able to lift more weight than me but we have tools for that now. Ten bucks says that I can even out shoot you.

Syne Wrote:I know this is completely outside of your reality, but I don't have many fears, insecurities, or struggles. Those things are very often more a consequence of our own outlook than any real threat, instability, or obstacle. And people often even create them with their own dreaded self-fulfilling prophecies. And there's a huge difference between not disclosing vulnerabilities and not experiencing them.

Homophobia is a fear.

Quote:P.S. Being homosexual doesn’t make you less of a person.

Syne Wrote:Who said they were?! O_o

You did. If you didn't think so, you wouldn't pity them.

(Jan 21, 2019 07:08 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jan 21, 2019 06:21 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Whoa, is higher education a masculine role?!! O_O

At one time it was but I was insinuating, not just a pay gap, but breadwinners.

Pay gap is what defines breadwinners, especially when it one makes enough that it becomes cheaper for one parent to stay home than pay for childcare.
Or do you imagine some weird scenario where the person making less is considered the breadwinner? O_o

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Syne Wrote:That's a physical reality, not a script. Again, you must have imbibed too much girl power fiction.  

Enough with the girl power. It doesn't take much force to break a bone just skill and I have that. You might be able to lift more weight than me but we have tools for that now. Ten bucks says that I can even out shoot you.

That's a lot of empty talk. Unless they can sucker punch a guy or use a weapon, extremely few women have any chance whatsoever of breaking a bone of the average guy.
You probably can out shoot me, as I'm not an avid shooter. Shooting doesn't take strength, unless you shoot some of the guns I do.

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Syne Wrote:I know this is completely outside of your reality, but I don't have many fears, insecurities, or struggles. Those things are very often more a consequence of our own outlook than any real threat, instability, or obstacle. And people often even create them with their own dreaded self-fulfilling prophecies. And there's a huge difference between not disclosing vulnerabilities and not experiencing them.

Homophobia is a fear.

Disagreement is just disagreement. Projecting fear into something a person simply disagrees with just betrays your own view of things you disagree with.
Probably explains all the girl power bluster above.

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Quote:P.S. Being homosexual doesn’t make you less of a person.

Syne Wrote:Who said they were?! O_o

You did. If you didn't think so, you wouldn't pity them.

So you think poor children, cancer victims, rape survivors, etc. are all "less of a person"?
I pity all those too. Are you really that stupid? O_o

(Jan 21, 2019 07:21 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]So you think poor children, cancer victims, rape survivors, etc. are all "less of a person"?
I pity all those too. Are you really that stupid? O_o

You're smart enough to know the difference. I don’t pity them. I can empathize with them. There’s a big difference. Pity has a negative connotation because it involves feelings of superiority. You think you’re better than they are. You may feel bad for them. You might even have the desire to help them but only to alleviate your own discomfort. You’re not putting yourself in their shoes. You’re not offering them a sense of self-worth. You’re condemning their behavior. "If you weren’t gay, you’d be gay." You’re acting as if it’s a disability. It’s not. They don’t need your pity. They need your acceptance.

You lied. You don’t want your biases challenged. You’re just truculent.

(Jan 21, 2019 08:33 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jan 21, 2019 07:21 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]So you think poor children, cancer victims, rape survivors, etc. are all "less of a person"?
I pity all those too. Are you really that stupid? O_o

You're smart enough to know the difference. I don’t pity them. I can empathize with them. There’s a big difference. Pity has a negative connotation because it involves feelings of superiority. You think you’re better than they are. You may feel bad for them. You might even have the desire to help them but only to alleviate your own discomfort. You’re not putting yourself in their shoes. You’re not offering them a sense of self-worth. You’re condemning their behavior. "If you weren’t gay, you’d be gay." You’re acting as if it’s a disability. It’s not. They don’t need your pity. They need your acceptance.

pit·y
the feeling of sorrow and compassion caused by the suffering and misfortunes of others.
em·pa·thize
understand and share the feelings of another.

I can't say that I really to "understand" what it's like to be a poor child, cancer victim, rape survivor, or gay. I'm sure there are things in those experiences of which I have no basis for comparison. So maybe you should enlighten us as to your favored definitions. Or just quit trying to demonize people...and projecting that on others.

The only negative connotation is that someone finds it unfortunate. I find it unfortunate that people are Neo-Nazis too, but I don't really pity them, and I definitely don't empathize with them. I do think I'm better than them, but that's not a function of pity. I don't think I'm inherently better than poor children, cancer victims, rape survivors, or gays. I'm just not as unfortunate.

I have no discomfort from poor children, cancer victims, rape survivors, or gays. The only discomfort is what you're projecting.

No one can really offer anyone a sense of self-worth. As the name implies, individuals are ultimately the only ones who can change their own estimation of themselves. And no one is entitled to the approval of others. I condemn lots of behaviors. Smoking, overeating, gambling, over-drinking, bad driving, intellectual dishonest, etc, etc.. Now you may call those disabilities, but being poor as a child, having cancer, being raped, and being gay are perhaps disadvantages, not disabilities.

No one is entitled to the acceptance of others, and the fact that anyone "needs" it is only an indicator of a poor mental state.

Quote:You lied. You don’t want your biases challenged. You’re just truculent.

Silly girl, the desire to have one's ideas challenged doesn't necessitate that they will find sufficient challenge nor that they will be changed.
And one's ideas won't be challenged if you never express them.


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Quote:No one is entitled to the acceptance of others, and the fact that anyone "needs" it is only an indicator of a poor mental state.

What a cold and self-isolating attitude---that people have to earn your acceptance and respect for them as human beings. This can only be rooted in a horribly twisted self-concept wherein one must always work to deserve the acceptance of others, as if rejection and contempt is the given and natural state of being. Or worse still, that one does not even need the acceptance of others. Such self-hatred, relentlessly projected as the hated other, must be a terrible burden to bear in life. How pitiful.