Ex-male escort ... 'turns straight'

[Syne]

Yes, that's my point. We know that yours was clearly speaking outside of his field, but the same cannot be said of mine. Not discernible with available info implies nonexistent, while not discernible without any available info is inconclusive.

Instead of backpedaling, I'd suggest dog paddling at this point because you're drowning in your own BS.

Can't be helped if you can't follow basic reasoning.

My sourse had a Ph.D. in psychology. Thank you very much.

Yes, psychology doesn't even entail as much natural science as psychiatry.

But if you don't like that one....

It is often assumed that animals do not have sex for pleasure, or alternatively that humans, pigs, bonoboes (and perhaps dolphins and one or two more species of primates) are the only species that do. This is sometimes stated as "animals mate only for reproduction". This view is considered a misconception by some scholars. [1] [2]

So...only an abstract from an ethologist, where I can't examine his arguments or evidence? As such, it's just an appeal to authority.  
But:

Individual reproduction is the most important phase in the proliferation of individuals or genes within a species: for this reason, there exist complex mating rituals, which can be very complex even if they are often regarded as fixed action patterns.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethology#M..._supremacy


Jonathan Balcombe argues that the prevalence of non-reproductive sexual behaviour in certain species suggests that sexual stimulation is pleasurable. He also points to the presence of the clitoris in some female mammals, and evidence for female orgasm in primates. On the other hand, it is impossible to know the subjective feelings of animals, and the notion that non-human animals experience emotions similar to humans is a contentious subject.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sex...r#Pleasure

If that's the crux of his contention, it's a non-starter. Behaviors evolved to serve a biological imperative can, over time, come to serve other purposes. And I haven't once denied that sexual stimulation wasn't pleasurable for animals, just in case that straw man may be lurking.

Exaptation (Stephen Jay Gould and Elisabeth Vrba's proposed replacement for what he considered the teleologically-loaded term "pre-adaptation") and the related term co-option describe a shift in the function of a trait during evolution. For example, a trait can evolve because it served one particular function, but subsequently it may come to serve another. Exaptations are common in both anatomy and behaviour.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaptation

And if you're so found of evolutionary psychology...

Almost everyone misunderstands the theory. Contrary to popular belief, the gene-centered theory of evolution does not imply that the point of all human striving is to spread our genes. With the exception of the fertility doctor who artificially inseminated patients with his own semen, the donors to the sperm bank for Nobel Prize winners, and other kooks, no human being (or animal) strives to spread his or her genes.—How the Mind Works by Steven Pinker

Really? Another psychologist?  

Homosexuality isn’t going against some grand design. It isn’t unnatural.

Animals have sex for all sorts of reasons, pleasure being one of them, and so do we, but we’re the only creature that’s aware of the consequences.

We’re wired for copulatory behavior, aka SEX. You are accusing me of being anthropomorphic but you’re doing it on a much larger scale, sweetie. Evolution doesn’t have a grand scheme, silly boy. It doesn’t work that way. Natural selection doesn’t even necessarily promote behaviors that are good for the species as a whole. That’s a common misconception, as well. Evolution doesn’t have foresight, intentions, or a purpose.

Who said there was any "grand design"?
High rates of addiction, depression, and suicide aren't exactly echoed in the animal kingdom, if that's your yardstick for what's natural.
Animals also do not display any homosexual orientation.
Like sexually-reproducing species that don't experience sexual pleasure, the reproductive drive evolved isolated from a pleasure-seeking reward system. The pleasure-seeking sex drive was an exaptation of the reproductive drive, but the underlying biological imperative is still what buoys the behavior.

Half the people surveyed by the Japanese Family Planning Association said they hadn't gone to the bone zone in the past month. Some guys claimed that they didn't even masturbate anymore. What's going on?
...
When you do that, the numbers seem to show a steady decline in sex drive over time. As of 2012, 36 percent of teenage men and 59 percent of teenage women (a supposedly universally hormone addled population) expressed no interest or were actively turned off by sex—a 19 and 12 percent increase over 2008 numbers, respectively. (A later 2013 survey appears to show lower levels of sexual disinterest, but the numbers examine a different age bracket and therefore aren't really comparable, especially since part of the celibacy narrative is that it's more marked in the younger generations.) The same year, another survey by the Japanese Association for Sex Education found that sexual activity in university girls had gone down to 47 percent, a 60 percent drop since 2005. One statistician has created a series of graphs, looking for the origins of this trend, which show just how much lower the nation's collective sex drive is than other nations'.
...
The most convincing explanation for the trend offered thus far may be one of widespread cultural pressures and changing life desires amongst Japan's youth. Commentators make the point that still-extant social norms about modesty and purity make it difficult to navigate flings or casual sex, leading some to see it as a fraught hassle.
- https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/7b7y8...ucking-361

So moving away from the social mores that promote marriage and reproduction seems to of had a marked impact on their national sex drive. IOW, rejection of reproduction seems to lead to a reduction in the sex drive...evidenced on a massive scale. And it's not just Japan:

Why Americans are having less sex

Today, sex seems more available to us than ever before. With just a swipe on their phones, singles can schedule their next hookup, while committed couples have an apparent "sure thing" every night. This is also known as "the marriage advantage."

Why, then, are Americans having less sex than they were 20 years ago, not more?

According to a 2017 study published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, the large general social survey (GSS) found that American adults had sex about nine fewer times per year in the early 2010s than they did in the late 1990s, a decline that wasn't explained by longer work hours or increased use of pornography.

Do you have an urge to donate your sperm?

No, because the reproductive drive, at least in humans, isn't about indiscriminately producing offspring. It includes safeguarding the survival of our fragile young to ensure our genes make it beyond just our children. Anonymous children do not satisfy that biological instinct.

[C C]

Thanks CC. I am 6 ft and 230 lbs. Not at my ideal 200 weight. A gay friend of mine once told me I looked like I was married with 10 kids. But as out of shape as I am, I probably could assert myself in a forceful way if it ever came to it. Not all stereotypes of weak effeminate gay men are true.  

Tab Hunter, George Maharis, Marlon Brando (pansexual)... The list goes on and on, plus those of borderline rumor (Cary Grant, Randolph Scott). Raymond Burr wasn't athletic nor a sex symbol, but had the mass to bear-wrestle a support pillar.

~

[Syne]

Thanks CC. I am 6 ft and 230 lbs. Not at my ideal 200 weight. A gay friend of mine once told me I looked like I was married with 10 kids. But as out of shape as I am, I probably could assert myself in a forceful way if it ever came to it. Not all stereotypes of weak effeminate gay men are true.  

Tab Hunter, George Maharis, Marlon Brando (pansexual)... The list goes on and on,  plus those of borderline rumor (Cary Grant, Randolph Scott). Raymond Burr wasn't athletic nor a sex symbol, but had the mass to bear-wrestle a support pillar.  

~

Yeah, not worried about an overweight shut-in. But don't let that dash your fantasies, CC.

[C C]

Tread softly for you tread on my dreams.

Don't worry. With that "little buddy" that shad-boy struggles to get up, no woman has anything to worry about. Gizzard shad stinks, so daily going out to bait trotlines with it kind of guarantees an incel life.

~

[Syne]

Tread softly for you tread on my dreams.

Don't worry. With that "little buddy" that shad-boy struggles to get up, no woman has anything to worry about. Gizzard shad stinks, so daily going out to bait trotlines with it kind of guarantees an incel life.

~

Oh, if you only had a clue. Fantasies do help people cope though.
And oh, the hypocrisy of whining about sobriquet only to pile on many yourself, no doubt intended to be more insulting.

And all this just makes me think you must have some experience with delinquent fathers, as nothing else has ever come close to drawing this kind of vitriol from you.

Well...you're not pre-Alzheimer's are you?

[Secular Sanity]

So moving away from the social mores that promote marriage and reproduction seems to of had a marked impact on their national sex drive. IOW, rejection of reproduction seems to lead to a reduction in the sex drive...evidenced on a massive scale. And it's not just Japan:

Ms Fukasawa's coined the term ten years ago to describe males that have no interest in getting married, or having a girlfriend, but do pursue sexual relationships. Do you really think that they’re not masturbating?  

I can’t remember where I encountered him. I think it was the ANPO: Art X War documentary. Nakamura Hiroshi was discussing the impact that losing the war and the occupation of Japan had on masculinity. The Japanese soldiers were characterized as infantile and emasculated.  He used metaphors to depict empowered masculinity, e.g. trains, planes, etc. They represented masculinity as a more of a movement rather than focusing on the male body (phallus) or physical prowess. He thought that the industrial revolution embodied masculinity through consumption rather than sexual pleasure. The salaryman became the new symbol of masculinity and was the socio-economical force in post-war Japan.

But due to the economy, a college degree no longer guarantees employment, and from what I’ve read, not only the Japanese, but Americans, as well, don’t want to fall into the same trap as their parents. The ones with drive seem to be focusing on entrepreneurial ventures or work that they enjoy. Don’t get me wrong. Nobody approves of a parasitic lifestyle, but on your death bed will you think, "I wish I would have spent more time at the office?"

I don't think that's something that you need to worry your pretty little head about. There's plenty of humans.

http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

I’m curious to know, though, Syne. How does this bit on herbivore males prove that there’s a biological urge to reproduce?

[Syne]

So moving away from the social mores that promote marriage and reproduction seems to of had a marked impact on their national sex drive. IOW, rejection of reproduction seems to lead to a reduction in the sex drive...evidenced on a massive scale. And it's not just Japan:

Ms Fukasawa's coined the term ten years ago to describe males that have no interest in getting married, or having a girlfriend, but do pursue sexual relationships. Do you really think that they’re not masturbating?  

Yeah, apparently they pursue a lot of sexual relations with dolls and prostitutes. Do you really think that's healthy or good for society? O_o
Do you suppose the women are only masturbating? Has there been an uptick in lesbianism for the lonely girls?

But with their prevalence of unsafe sex...

Even though compulsory STI checks are regularly done by Soaplands (Japanese-type brothels), there is an increasing occurrence of bareback (without a condom) sex. So even though the clean bill of health is shown from that month, if the lady in question has serviced several patrons that week there is no saying whether or not she is unknowingly spreading an infection. So as often advised here on Tokyo Cheapo, please avoid them. If not, please keep reading.

To give you an idea without boring you: on average this year there are 30 new cases of syphilis per week in Tokyo alone. Less than a decade ago this was only 10 new cases per week. The number of HIV infections confirmed monthly in Tokyo has also seen an increase. What is bringing this about? This may in part be related to certain prevailing attitudes towards sex and specifically condoms.
- https://tokyocheapo.com/living/safe-sex-...-in-tokyo/

...and a falling birthrate, I would expect the abortion rates to be increasing. But they have been decreasing. http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/a...japan.html
Working girls just more responsible with their birth control?

I can’t remember where I encountered him. I think it was the ANPO: Art X War documentary. Nakamura Hiroshi was discussing the impact that losing the war and the occupation of Japan had on masculinity. The Japanese soldiers were characterized as infantile and emasculated.  He used metaphors to depict empowered masculinity, e.g. trains, planes, etc. They represented masculinity as a more of a movement rather than focusing on the male body (phallus) or physical prowess. He thought that the industrial revolution embodied masculinity through consumption rather than sexual pleasure. The salaryman became the new symbol of masculinity and was the socio-economical force in post-war Japan.

These are recent trends.

As of 2012, 36 percent of teenage men and 59 percent of teenage women (a supposedly universally hormone addled population) expressed no interest or were actively turned off by sex—a 19 and 12 percent increase over 2008 numbers, respectively. ... The same year, another survey by the Japanese Association for Sex Education found that sexual activity in university girls had gone down to 47 percent, a 60 percent drop since 2005.
- https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/7b7y8...ucking-361

I’m curious to know, though, Syne. How does this bit on herbivore males prove that there’s a biological imperative to reproduce?

Does sex with dolls and prostitutes, increasing STIs, and a falling birthrates portend evolutionary fitness?
Or are the failure to replace the population, disease, and dysfunctional sexually signalling extinction?
This doomsday clock tells you when Japan's sex problem will cause the country to go extinct

If there were only some way to figure out which one served evolutionary needs.

[Secular Sanity]

Yeah, apparently they pursue a lot of sexual relations with dolls and prostitutes. Do you really think that's healthy or good for society?
Do you suppose the women are only masturbating?

And that’s because evolution ensures that we want sex but not babies. Plenty of American men participate in that behavior, too, and yes, females masturbate, duh!

This doomsday clock tells you when Japan's sex problem will cause the country to go extinct.

Recent media coverage has sensationalized surveys from the Japan Family Planning Association and the Cabinet Office that show a declining interest in dating and sexual relationships among young people, especially among men. However, changes in sexuality and fertility are more likely an outcome of the decline in family formation than its cause. Since the usual purpose of dating in Japan is marriage, the reluctance to marry often translates to a reluctance to engage in more casual relationships.

The majority of Japanese people remain committed to traditional ideas of family, with a husband who provides financial support, a wife who works in the home, and two children. Labor practices, such as long working hours, health insurance, and the national pension system, are premised on a traditional breadwinner model. As a result, Japan has largely maintained a gender-based division of labor with one of the largest gender pay gaps in the developed world, even as other countries began moving towards more equal arrangements in the 1970s.

According to the sociologist Masahiro Yamada, the failure of conventions to adapt to the economic and social realities of Japanese society has caused a "gap in family formation" between those who succeed in creating a conventional family and those who remain single and childless.

The number of single-child or childless couples has increased since 2002 (to 23.3 percent in 2010) even as the desire for larger families remains the same. Only 2% of births occur outside of marriage, compared to 30-60% of births in Europe and North America. This is due to social taboos, legal pressure, and financial hurdles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Japan

If there were only some way to figure out which one served evolutionary needs.

What needs? Evolution doesn’t have any needs, desires, or purposes. And as far as the religious imperatives are concerned-->replenish and subdue it. Check. 

Like I said, we’re the only creatures on earth with the knowledge of reproduction and we control it now.

Bwahaha!

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

[Image: 46805951941_5ee6f70ebd_n.jpg]

Who knows? Maybe there will be a role reversal after all. What’s the matter, Syne? Is your biological cock ticking? Better work on those eyebrows, little buddy. Oh, and keep smiling, honey.  

[Leigha]

Holy thread derail Batman!

[Syne]

Yeah, apparently they pursue a lot of sexual relations with dolls and prostitutes. Do you really think that's healthy or good for society?
Do you suppose the women are only masturbating?

And that’s because evolution ensures that we want sex but not babies. Plenty of American men participate in that behavior, too, and yes, females masturbate, duh!

Again, do you really believe that's healthy or good for society? Do you really think those are "fit" individuals? O_o
An appeal to the masses doesn't make it good for a species.

And you missed the next sentence:

Has there been an uptick in lesbianism for the lonely girls?

IOW, are the women happy to be alone or consoling each other, with the men looking elsewhere?

This doomsday clock tells you when Japan's sex problem will cause the country to go extinct.

Recent media coverage has sensationalized surveys from the Japan Family Planning Association and the Cabinet Office that show a declining interest in dating and sexual relationships among young people, especially among men. However, changes in sexuality and fertility are more likely an outcome of the decline in family formation than its cause. Since the usual purpose of dating in Japan is marriage, the reluctance to marry often translates to a reluctance to engage in more casual relationships.

The majority of Japanese people remain committed to traditional ideas of family, with a husband who provides financial support, a wife who works in the home, and two children. Labor practices, such as long working hours, health insurance, and the national pension system, are premised on a traditional breadwinner model. As a result, Japan has largely maintained a gender-based division of labor with one of the largest gender pay gaps in the developed world, even as other countries began moving towards more equal arrangements in the 1970s.

According to the sociologist Masahiro Yamada, the failure of conventions to adapt to the economic and social realities of Japanese society has caused a "gap in family formation" between those who succeed in creating a conventional family and those who remain single and childless.

The number of single-child or childless couples has increased since 2002 (to 23.3 percent in 2010) even as the desire for larger families remains the same. Only 2% of births occur outside of marriage, compared to 30-60% of births in Europe and North America. This is due to social taboos, legal pressure, and financial hurdles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Japan

Family formation and child-rearing are part and parcel with the reproductive drive in humans. So it's trivial that a decline in those aspects of the reproductive drive would cause a secondary decline in sexuality and fertility. The fact that those aren't the cause of the decline in family formation, tell us which is more fundamental. If the sex drive were primary, we would actually expect to see sexuality and fertility causing less family formation, rather than vice versa. Do you even read your own citations?

And that even says "the reluctance to marry often translates to a reluctance to engage in more casual relationships", so it's not isolated to simply not marrying. Economics is not the cause of a lower birthrate, as the poor among almost every culture tend to have more children. And again, in the lack of family formation, we would expect either more single mothers (only 2%), with no remarkable drop in the birthrate, or an increase in abortions...neither of which are evidenced.

If there were only some way to figure out which one served evolutionary needs.

What needs? Evolution doesn’t have any needs, desires, or purposes. And as far as the religious imperatives are concerned-->replenish and subdue it. Check. 

Like I said, we’re the only creatures on earth with the knowledge of reproduction and we control it now.

Silly girl, evolutionary needs are not the needs or desires of something out there called evolution. They are the needs of individuals and species shaped by the process of evolution. Sad that this has to be spelled out for you. Who said anything about "religious imperatives", aside from your faith in the sex drive to single-handedly keep a species alive even though many species complete lack one?

Human reason can control many of our baser instincts. And? O_o
Do you think they only exist if they can't be resisted at all? That's a silly false dilemma, as I hope you believe people can even control their own sexual appetites.

Who knows? Maybe there will be a role reversal after all. What’s the matter, Syne? Is your biological cock ticking? Better work on those eyebrows, little buddy. Oh, and keep smiling, honey.

The biological and instinctual differences ensure no such role reversal. But you can dream. And understanding our innate reproductive drive has nothing to do with any conscious, rational desires. But maybe you don't have much experience with a conscious, rational control of desires.