Thoughts on the soul

[Yazata]

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/ber...-lucidity/

As the above article makes clear, terminal lucidity is a real phenomenon that occurs when people are on their deathbed.

It's possible (maybe), but I'm hugely skeptical. I've been present at several people's deaths and there wasn't any terminal lucidity. Just the opposite. People who are dying seem to typically lose consciousness some time before the body stops breathing, the heart stops beating and they die.

Because of this, along with various paranormal phenomena, I conclude that something really does pass out of the dying person, call it a soul or spirit or whatever.

Nope, I'm not joining you in that one. Until maybe a couple of centuries ago, people used to think of the soul not only as a principle of consciousness, but as the source of life itself. When death occurred, people thought that the "vital life force" that animated the body had departed from it. In ancient times it was called the "pneuma" and identified with the breath. It was how God "breathed life" into his lifeless creations. And the idea that the breath/life-force of deceased individuals might remain around the places people had died was the origin of our idea of ghosts as spectral vapors.

Someone asked me in another forum where such a thing would derive its energy. I thought about it and concluded that the quantum vacuum would supply more than enough energy to support such a conscious disembodied entity. First, take a look at how much energy is just needed to support a living functioning brain:

"According to Scientific American, studies indicate that the human brain consumes about 12 watts, or an equivalent of 12 joule seconds. A year is 60 sec. times 60 min. x 24 hr. x 365 days equals 31,536,000 seconds. Multiply by 12 joules and you get just shy of 378 and one half million joules per year. It might sound like a lot, but it is about what a new LED bulb uses over the same year."--- https://www.quora.com/How-much-energy-in...-in-a-year

12 joules or watts a second isn't a lot of energy. So where could a soul, which probably requires much less energy than a brain does, get its source of energy? I speculate that the quantum vacuum could supply more than enough energy to support it. Here's how much vacuum energy is in empty space:

"...in both quantum electrodynamics (QED) and stochastic electrodynamics (SED), consistency with the principle of Lorentz covariance and with the magnitude of the Planck constant suggest a much larger value of 10 to the 113 joules per cubic meter."---- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy

That's alot of free energy just sitting around in empty space!

How would a ghost extract it in such a way so as to do useful work?

I don't think a soul would have any problem supporting itself on this amount of energy. It would also explain the source of energy for  poltergeist activity, haunting phenomena, and ufos as well.

My biggest problem with souls and ghosts is understanding how their various functions are performed. Ghosts are typically thought to have some kind of at least residual intelligence and awareness. Intelligence and awareness are performances, things that something does. In order to do the things that we call intelligent and aware, a lot would have to be happening inside a spirit, an elaborate inner process. Even if quantum vacuum energy is powering it, how does the spirit perform whatever it is that the spirit is said to be doing? Presumably they don't have brains or physiology. Spirits must be composed of something, something that can assume form and structure such that complicated events can occur in it that mirrors the kind of things happening in embodied living individuals.

“The intimate sense of self-awareness we experience bubbling up at each moment is rooted in the originating activity of the Universe. We are all of us arising together at the invisible center of the cosmos.”― Alexis Karpouzos

It sounds nice. It might even be true.

[Syne]

It's a very odd juxtaposition to assume an immaterial existence requires material energy. Trying to add the soul into the list of things that can be reduced, in some respect, to the physical universe. It's much more likely that any immaterial existence is prior to physical existence and not only produces its own energy, if it even has such needs, but also produces material energy. Trying to ground the soul in the physical world is very much like trying to prove god exists. The means do not fit the goal.

Light is immaterial. Gravity is immaterial. Time and space are immaterial. I don't see why an immaterial soul couldn't interface with our physical reality. Paranormal activity certainly suggests it does.

immaterial adjective
im·ma·te·ri·al | \ˌi-mə-ˈtir-ē-əl  \
Definition of immaterial
1 : not consisting of matter : INCORPOREAL

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/immaterial

im·ma·te·ri·al
2.
Philosophy
spiritual, rather than physical.

Light is a physical particle called a photon, and gravity is a physical force, theorized to be mediate by a physical particle called a graviton. Time and space are relationships between physical objects and events.

No one said a soul couldn't interface with physical reality, as they obviously do if bodies are controlled by them. Only that assuming a soul requires physical energy would make it dependent on the physical world and subject to scientific investigation. Things prior in rank cannot be dependent upon something subsequent in rank. That would be an error of questionable cause.

---

How would a ghost extract it in such a way so as to do useful work?

Or better yet, how do they extract it without violating the conservation of energy?

[Magical Realist]

Only that assuming a soul requires physical energy would make it dependent on the physical world and subject to scientific investigation

A soul may not in itself require physical energy so much as when it actually performs work and exerts a causal influence on physical reality. Paranormal investigations demonstrate a common trait of ghosts draining energy from camera batteries, from people, and from ambient air heat resulting in cold spots. This may be the prerequisite to moving an object, making a noise, or projecting an apparition of itself or a luminous orb.

---

It's possible (maybe), but I'm hugely skeptical. I've been present at several people's deaths and there wasn't any terminal lucidity. Just the opposite. People who are dying seem to typically lose consciousness some time before the body stops breathing, the heart stops beating and they die.

I was present when both my dad and my mom died. In both cases they were urged by someone present to let go and leave as everything would be alright. Within about 30 seconds of this assurance they both died, even though they appeared to be totally unconscious at the time. This is a common event with hospice workers--this speaking to the unconscious patient as if they can hear and urging them to move on. This suggests to me the presence of that conscious soul that is still within them and has the power to leave the body when it feels it is time. Another common event with the dying is their passing on when their beloved one leaves the room. It's almost as if that gives them permission to quit holding on and to pass on.

[Syne]

Only that assuming a soul requires physical energy would make it dependent on the physical world and subject to scientific investigation

A soul may not in itself require physical energy so much as when it actually performs work and exerts a causal influence on physical reality. Paranormal investigations demonstrate a common trait of ghosts draining energy from camera batteries, from people, and from ambient air heat resulting in cold spots. This may be the prerequisite to moving an object, making a noise, or projecting an apparition of itself or a luminous orb.

That seems to run counter to your OP.

"It might sound like a lot, but it is about what a new LED bulb uses over the same year."
That's no where near a noticeable drain on a battery.

"I don't think a soul would have any problem supporting itself on this amount of energy."
That would be requiring energy.

[Magical Realist]

That's no where near a noticeable drain on a battery.

Like I said, that much physical energy may only be required when the soul does work or exerts a causal influence on physical reality, as in moving objects, making noises, projecting apparitions or lights or orbs. That's what paranormal investigations show.

[Syne]

That's no where near a noticeable drain on a battery.

Like I said, the physical energy may only be required when the soul does work or exerts a causal influence on physical reality, as in moving objects, making noises, projecting apparitions or lights or orbs. That's what paranormal investigations show.

If souls exist, they do exert a causal influence on physical reality all the time, using only 12 watts in a brain. Assuming that they can have a direct effect on reality requires orders of magnitude more energy and a hitherto unknown means of energy transfer. What you believe unverifiable things show doesn't account for these discrepancies.

[Magical Realist]

If souls exist, they do exert a causal influence on physical reality all the time, using only 12 watts in a brain.

Like I said, that much physical energy may only be required when the soul does work or exerts a causal influence on physical reality, as in moving objects, making noises, projecting apparitions or lights or orbs. That's what paranormal investigations show.

[Syne]

If souls exist, they do exert a causal influence on physical reality all the time, using only 12 watts in a brain.

Like I said, that much physical energy may only be required when the soul does work or exerts a causal influence on physical reality, as in moving objects, making noises, projecting apparitions or lights or orbs. That's what paranormal investigations show.

No, that's how much your own reference said the brain requires to influence physical reality...through a body.

Again, assuming that they can have a direct effect on reality requires orders of magnitude more energy and a hitherto unknown means of energy transfer. What you believe unverifiable things show doesn't account for these discrepancies.

[Magical Realist]

No, that's how much your own reference said the brain requires to influence physical reality...through a body.

Right..the brain but not necessarily the soul.

Like I said, that much physical energy may only be required when the soul does work or exerts a causal influence on physical reality, as in moving objects, making noises, exploding lightbulbs, projecting apparitions or lights or orbs. That's what paranormal investigations show.

[Syne]

No, that's how much your own reference said the brain requires to influence physical reality...through a body.

Right..the brain but not necessarily the soul.

Like I said, that much physical energy may only be required when the soul does work or exerts a causal influence on physical reality, as in moving objects, making noises, exploding lightbulbs, projecting apparitions or lights or orbs. That's what paranormal investigations show.

For the third time, thus far completely ignored, assuming that they can have a direct effect on reality requires orders of magnitude more energy and a hitherto unknown means of energy transfer. What you believe unverifiable things show doesn't account for these discrepancies.