Religion has no monopoly on transcendent experience

[Magical Realist]

Maybe this explains why Syne has so little appreciation for or experience with the feeling of awe. Trying to get a narcissist to understand awe is like trying to get a sociopath to understand empathy. They're simply incapable of it.


"Keltner describes awe most simply as, “Being in the presence of something vast, beyond current understanding.” Awe can be inspired by a broad spectrum of stimuli such as panoramic views, being immersed in nature, looking up at the stars, brilliant colors in the sky at sunrise and sunset, remarkable human athletic accomplishments, mind-boggling architectural structures such as skyscrapers or the Egyptian pyramids, breathtaking art, music, etc. The possibilities for experiencing awe are limitless and aren't reserved just for "peak experiences."

In the Living Philosophies anthology, Albert Einstein described the importance of keeping your antennae up and senses open to experience awe. Einstein wrote, “The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder or stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.”

In 2007, Michelle “Lani” Shiota, Dacher Keltner, and Amanda Mossman Steiner (all of UC Berkeley at the time) published, “The Nature of Awe: Elicitors, Appraisals, and Effects on Self-Concept.” In this groundbreaking study, Shiota et al. identified universal subjective descriptions people used to describe a sense of awe. These included:

“Feeling small, insignificant ... the presence of something greater than self ... unaware of day-to-day concerns ... connected with the world around me ... did not want the experience to end."

Over the years, Keltner and colleagues have found that people tend to become less self-focused, greedy, materialistic and narrow-minded after experiencing awe. In fact, many of the studies conducted by Keltner et al. have sought to understand why awe arouses altruism of different kinds. The recurrent theme of their research seems to be that awe imbues people with a different sense of themselves...one that is smaller, more humble, and cognizant of being a unique, but insignificant “flea” in a much larger universal scheme."---https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the...narcissism

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The various experiences described only "involve awe". They are not equivalent to awe.

LOL! So you just confirmed that awe is part of the transcendent and/or peak experience. Tks for confirming that.

[Syne]

Spiritual/religious as in the individual spiritual aspect/ideas of religion...not the theological stance.

Self-transcendence is a personality trait associated with experiencing spiritual ideas such as considering oneself an integral part of the universe. It is one of the "character" dimensions of personality assessed in Cloninger's Temperament and Character Inventory. Self-transcendence is distinctive as the first trait concept of a spiritual nature to be incorporated into a major theory of personality. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-transcendence

Well, now where getting somewhere.  

From your link:

"High self-transcendence has been linked to psychotic tendencies, such as schizotypy and mania, particularly in individuals low in both self-directedness and cooperativeness."


From what I gather, it’s just different hierarchal concepts of the self.  The self as an autonomous individual, a member of society, and an integral part of the universe, which I have already acknowledge.

Each of those corresponds to a different character trait.

Self-concepts vary according to the extent to which a person identifies the self as (1) an autonomous individual, (2) an integral part of humanity, and (3) an integral part of the universe as a whole. Each aspect of self-concept corresponds to one of three character dimensions called self-directedness, cooperativeness, and self-transcendence, respectively.
- http://psych.colorado.edu/~carey/courses...nger04.pdf

Autonomy corresponds with self-direction, humanity with cooperativeness, and the universe with self-transcendence.

And psychopathology is only correlated in individuals low in the first two, which are more predictive of personality disorders in general. Self-transcendence only mediates the type of disorder.

Maybe this explains why Syne has so little appreciation for or experience with the feeling of awe. Trying to get a narcissist to understand awe is like trying to get a sociopath to understand empathy. They're simply incapable of it.

Where did I ever say I've never experienced awe? O_o
This is just another random straw man of yours.  

"Keltner describes awe most simply as, “Being in the presence of something vast, beyond current understanding.” Awe can be inspired by a broad spectrum of stimuli such as panoramic views, being immersed in nature, looking up at the stars, brilliant colors in the sky at sunrise and sunset, remarkable human athletic accomplishments, mind-boggling architectural structures such as skyscrapers or the Egyptian pyramids, breathtaking art, music, etc. The possibilities for experiencing awe are limitless and aren't reserved just for "peak experiences."

In the Living Philosophies anthology, Albert Einstein described the importance of keeping your antennae up and senses open to experience awe. Einstein wrote, “The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder or stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.”

In 2007, Michelle “Lani” Shiota, Dacher Keltner, and Amanda Mossman Steiner (all of UC Berkeley at the time) published, “The Nature of Awe: Elicitors, Appraisals, and Effects on Self-Concept.” In this groundbreaking study, Shiota et al. identified universal subjective descriptions people used to describe a sense of awe. These included:

“Feeling small, insignificant ... the presence of something greater than self ... unaware of day-to-day concerns ... connected with the world around me ... did not want the experience to end."

Over the years, Keltner and colleagues have found that people tend to become less self-focused, greedy, materialistic and narrow-minded after experiencing awe. In fact, many of the studies conducted by Keltner et al. have sought to understand why awe arouses altruism of different kinds. The recurrent theme of their research seems to be that awe imbues people with a different sense of themselves...one that is smaller, more humble, and cognizant of being a unique, but insignificant “flea” in a much larger universal scheme."---https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the...narcissism

Again, you're talking about awe...not transcendence.
It's really like you have no clue what transcendence may be.  

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The various experiences described only "involve awe". They are not equivalent to awe.

LOL! So you just confirmed that awe is part of the transcendent and/or peak experience. Tks for confirming that.

Where did I EVER deny anything of the sort? O_o
Two things being different does not preclude them from occurring simultaneously.

Again, just your sad little attempt to bolster your fragile ego by toppling your own pathetic straw men.  

[Magical Realist]

Again, you're talking about awe...not transcendence.

Awe IS transcendence. As you have already been shown numerous times:

"Think about a time you’ve experienced awe. Maybe you were gazing up at a massive mountain range, or looking down into the depths of an infant’s eyes, or watching lightning as it seemed to crack the sky open. Maybe you felt humbled, or shaken; maybe you were struck by the vastness of the universe and your own tiny part in it. Psychologists consider awe a form of “self-transcendence”: you temporarily blur at the edges, feeling a connection to something greater than yourself."

Jason Silva on "Awe"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QyVZrV3d3o

"If you want to feel transcendent, you can fly to space and get a dose of the overview effect. Or head to a monastery and do some meditating. Or trek up a mountain and take in the landscape. Or, like David Yaden, a research fellow at the University of Pennsylvania, you can wander down to your local body of water — the Delaware River, in his case — and catch the sunset. “It’s not a stunning overview, but there’s beauty to it,” he says, and enough to inspire awe. This is part of a healthy phenomenological diet, he maintains; as his and others’ research has found, experiences like awe — called “self-transcendent” in the literature — have all sorts of positive consequences for the people who get into them...

STEs ( self-transcendent experiences} tend to have two distinct yet interconnected qualities: They are both relational and annihilational. The relational bit is the interconnectedness that you get with awe or flow; consider the “oneness” you felt at your last good concert, sports match, or protest. The annihilational component is how these STEs have a way of making you feel tiny compared to the immensity of the ocean, space, music, or whatever medium your mind is caught up in; they also have a tendency to dissolve the sense of self. Awe provides these qualities, but at a less intense, and possibly more palatable level, than a full-blown mystical adventure. “It’s not unfortunate that [awe] is the gateway drug,” Yaden says. To further the research of STEs, Yaden is building a database of people’s experiences with them — if you’d like to add yours, head here."----http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/03/why...r-you.html

[Syne]

Again, you're talking about awe...not transcendence.

Awe IS transcendence. As you have already been shown numerous times:

"Think about a time you’ve experienced awe. Maybe you were gazing up at a massive mountain range, or looking down into the depths of an infant’s eyes, or watching lightning as it seemed to crack the sky open. Maybe you felt humbled, or shaken; maybe you were struck by the vastness of the universe and your own tiny part in it. Psychologists consider awe a form of “self-transcendence”: you temporarily blur at the edges, feeling a connection to something greater than yourself."

Jason Silva on "Awe"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QyVZrV3d3o

Like you, Silva is talking out his ass. Variously conflating transcendence with awe or altruism is just that, conflation.

That you are so small you can only experience awe...well, it's truly sad. But your bullheadedness will only guarantee you never experience more.

[Magical Realist]

Again, you're talking about awe...not transcendence.

Awe IS transcendence. As you have already been shown numerous times:

"Think about a time you’ve experienced awe. Maybe you were gazing up at a massive mountain range, or looking down into the depths of an infant’s eyes, or watching lightning as it seemed to crack the sky open. Maybe you felt humbled, or shaken; maybe you were struck by the vastness of the universe and your own tiny part in it. Psychologists consider awe a form of “self-transcendence”: you temporarily blur at the edges, feeling a connection to something greater than yourself."

Jason Silva on "Awe"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QyVZrV3d3o

Like you, Silva is talking out his ass. Variously conflating transcendence with awe or altruism is just that, conflation.

That you are so small you can only experience awe...well, it's truly sad. But your bullheadedness will only guarantee you never experience more.

You haven't really experienced anything like awe-inspiring transcendence have you? I can tell by the stupid things you say about it. It requires a loss of selfness and a humility that is totally beyond your ability. Pity...

[Syne]

You haven't really experienced anything like awe-inspiring transcendence have you? I can tell by the stupid things you say about it. It requires a loss of selfness and a humility that is totally beyond your ability. Pity...

I'm sorry you feel that way. I guess I'll just have to accept that nothing I say will change what you think.

[Syne]

Notice how many times I've asked where I said any of the straw man arguments erected...without any reply but crickets. That's an indicator of cognitive dissonance, where answering those questions might disrupt the internal narrative someone is telling themselves. There's simply no real discussion to be had where such pathological avoidance is employed.

[Magical Realist]

"In our reflection we must go back to where we stand in awe before sheer being, faced with the marvel of the moment. The world is not just here. It shocks us into amazement. Of being itself all we can positively say is: being is ineffable. The heart of being confronts me as enigmatic, incompatible with my categories, sheer mystery. My power of probing is easily exhausted, my words fade, but what I sense is not emptiness but inexhaustible abundance, ineffable abundance. What I face I cannot utter or phrase in language. But the richness of my facing the abundance of being endows me with marvelous reward: a sense of the ineffable."

Abraham Joshua Heschel, in Who Is Man? (1965), Ch. 5

[Secular Sanity]

"In religion, transcendence refers to the aspect of a god's nature and power which is wholly independent of the material universe, beyond all physical laws."

Ya, not a fan.  Sorry.

Spiritual/religious as in the individual spiritual aspect/ideas of religion...not the theological stance.

Is this close to what you’re referring to?

What is Transcendence

The concept of transcendence is another widely misunderstood concept. As I always encourage you to do, reviewing and changing your definitions can be one of the most spiritually liberating things you can do in the realm of the mind. If your definitions are too small or skewed by your ego desires, fears, and so forth, then there's no space in your mind to appreciate the truth. ***

As I write this, I realize that transcendence is just a different term for the awakening path. It's just not a term that I use often precisely because of the confusion around it. People think they can avoid or ignore stuff through spirituality, and that's what they consider transcendence to be. More than a few people join monasteries or become single and abstinent to be "transcendent," but they are only running from society and relationships.

And in truth, they are really just trying to run away from themselves. Which is why your greatest teachers will often be the things and places that make you the most uncomfortable.***

[Secular Sanity]

*crickets*

Hmm...maybe he’s embarrassed because his epiphany was little blah or because Mr. Rational himself realized that it was an emotional experience.

Who knows?