In Summary.....

[Syne]

This is a dreadfully repetitive argument. An argument that mysteriously goes silent the second anyone asks if a baker should be allowed to refuse service for making KKK cakes. Until you can answer why people should be forced to make KKK cakes as well as gay wedding cakes, you have no argument worth taking seriously.

[Magical Realist]

This is a dreadfully repetitive argument. An argument that mysteriously goes silent the second anyone asks if a baker should be allowed to refuse service for making KKK cakes. Until you can answer why people should be forced to make KKK cakes as well as gay wedding cakes, you have no argument worth taking seriously.

You're comparing an ideology to an inborn sexual orientation. An ideology is chosen. The person adopting it is morally responsible for it. The person supporting it with a cake is morally responsible for that. A sexual orientation is not chosen. It is not a moral issue at all, any more than being blonde is a moral issue.

[Syne]

This is a dreadfully repetitive argument. An argument that mysteriously goes silent the second anyone asks if a baker should be allowed to refuse service for making KKK cakes. Until you can answer why people should be forced to make KKK cakes as well as gay wedding cakes, you have no argument worth taking seriously.

You're comparing an ideology to an inborn sexual orientation. An ideology is chosen. The person adopting it is morally responsible for it. The person supporting it with a cake is morally responsible for that. A sexual orientation is not chosen. It is not a moral issue at all, any more than being blonde is a moral issue.

Could you simply choose to stop believing in UFOs and ghosts? If so, why don't you? Or is that inherent to who you are? Forcing anyone to affirm your subjective identity is a violation of their freedom. Period.

[Magical Realist]

Could you simply choose to stop believing in UFOs and ghosts?

Ofcourse I could simply ignore the topic altogether and not believe anything about it. Just like I do many other beliefs. Noone has to believe anything.

Forcing anyone to affirm your subjective identity is a violation of their freedom.

Then I guess we don't have to affirm the subjective identity of bakers and florists as Christians. They have no special rights to discriminate against gay people based on their religion.

[Syne]

Could you simply choose to stop believing in UFOs and ghosts?

Ofcourse I could simply ignore the topic altogether and not believe anything about it. Just like I do many other beliefs. Noone has to believe anything.

So why don't you?

Forcing anyone to affirm your subjective identity is a violation of their freedom.

Then I guess we don't have to affirm the subjective identity of bakers and florists as Christians. They have no special rights to discriminate against gay people based on their religion.

No one has to take any action to affirm a Christian's identity, while gays want to force others to take action to affirm their own. Refusing to make a KKK cake, or any other that expresses ideas you don't agree with, is not discrimination. Forcing people to do so is tantamount to forcing them to renounce their religion...and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

[Magical Realist]

Refusing to make a KKK cake, or any other that expresses ideas you don't agree with, is not discrimination. Forcing people to do so is tantamount to forcing them to renounce their religion.

Being gay isn't "one's ideas". It's a state of being. Like being blonde. And there's no part of the Christian religion that says you can't do business with customers whose state of being you don't approve of. None whatsoever. It's pure hateful discrimination. It's discrimination against people based on who they are, like race, gender, ehnicity, or age. We refuse to make wedding cakes for gay people. That's illegal.

[Syne]

Refusing to make a KKK cake, or any other that expresses ideas you don't agree with, is not discrimination. Forcing people to do so is tantamount to forcing them to renounce their religion.

Being gay isn't "one's ideas". It's a state of being. Like being blonde. And there's no part of the Christian religion that says you can't do business with customers whose state of being you don't approve of. None whatsoever. It's pure hateful discrimination. It's discrimination against people based on who they are, like race, gender, ehnicity, or age. We refuse to make wedding cakes for gay people. That's illegal.

Christians do business with gays all the time, disproving your little discrimination nonsense. They just don't want to contribute to gay marriage, just like they don't want their taxes to fund abortion.
Again, for the third time now, why don't you quit believing in UFOs and ghosts?
If it's just "one's ideas" and has nothing to do with your innate state of being. What parts of your identity are innate to your being and which are not? Are the only things you consider part of your being physical or physically caused? Do you believe the universe is deterministic?

[Magical Realist]

Christians do business with gays all the time, disproving your little discrimination nonsense. They just don't want to contribute to gay marriage, just like they don't want their taxes to fund abortion.

They're not "contributing" anything. They're making money, which is what they are in business for. And I don't see them checking the lifestyles of divorcees or adulterers or Jewish or Muslim customers. It's bullshit to use religion as an excuse to deny people service based on their sexual orientation. It's hateful discrimination, and Jesus would not approve of that.

Again, for the third time now, why don't you quit believing in UFOs and ghosts

Because I choose not to. Which raises the question: what do I believe about ufos and ghosts if I admit I don't know what they are?

[Syne]

Christians do business with gays all the time, disproving your little discrimination nonsense. They just don't want to contribute to gay marriage, just like they don't want their taxes to fund abortion.

They're not "contributing" anything. They're making money, which is what they are in business for. And I don't see them checking the lifestyles of divorcees or adulterers or Jewish or Muslim customers. It's bullshit to use religion as an excuse to deny people service based on their sexual orientation. It's hateful discrimination, and Jesus would not approve of that.

If they're not contributing anything, why would anyone have a problem making a KKK cake? They're just making money, right? That's what they're in business for, right?
They probably would refuse to bake a divorce cake, if there were such a thing and if they were Catholic. Are there adulterer baked goods?
And being Jewish or Muslim (or divorced or an adulterer) aren't sins that a cake contributes to, while the cake is a fairly central staple of weddings.

Again, for the third time now, why don't you quit believing in UFOs and ghosts

Because I choose not to. Which raises the question: what do I believe about ufos and ghosts if I admit I don't know what they are?

Apparently, you believe they exist. Why don't you choose to believe otherwise? If it's not part of your identity, why cling onto the belief?
You only really have a choice if you can exercise that choice. If you would never choose otherwise, it is not really a choice, and is part of who you are. Even if only currently, like those self-reported gender-fluid folk.

[Magical Realist]

If they're not contributing anything, why would anyone have a problem making a KKK cake?

I already said. Because it's an ideology. Ideologies are chosen and are thus moral issues. Being gay is not. You are not supporting an ideology when you bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. You are supporting your customer and their right to be treated equally with all customers.

They probably would refuse to bake a divorce cake, if there were such a thing and if they were Catholic. Are there adulterer baked goods?

If they marry again after getting a divorce they are committing adultery according to the Bible. Why are there no protests about that? Why are they supporting Islam with cakes celebrating Islamic holidays? What if I'm atheist and want a birthday cake? Are they supporting atheism with that cake? The hypocrisy here is obvious.

Apparently, you believe they exist. Why don't you choose to believe otherwise? If it's not part of your identity, why cling onto the belief?

Because it makes sense. I choose the beliefs for myself that make sense to me. I've changed my beliefs in my past. So it's not inconceivable I could change them again on this subject. If believing in unknown phenomena is even a belief. If I don't believe in them AS something specific, then there is little believing going on. I'm not believing in something. I'm believing in a variable.