In Summary.....

[Syne]

If they're not contributing anything, why would anyone have a problem making a KKK cake?

I already said. Because it's an ideology. Ideologies are chosen and are thus moral issues. Being gay is not. You are not supporting an ideology when you bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. You are supporting your customer and their right to be treated equally with all customers.

It's only your belief (ideology) that says gay marriage (not being gay, as you so naively simplify) isn't a moral issue. Like I already said, those same people serve gays all the time, so it can't just be about them "being gay". As with all "sin", it's about what they do, not who they are. Ever heard of the phrase "hate the sin but love the sinner"? You can love an alcoholic without approving or wanting to contribute to their addiction.

But you never answered if you believe the universe is deterministic. Do you believe in incompatibilist free will?

They probably would refuse to bake a divorce cake, if there were such a thing and if they were Catholic. Are there adulterer baked goods?

If they marry again after getting a divorce they are committing adultery according to the Bible. Why are there no protests about that? Why are they supporting Islam with cakes celebrating Islamic holidays? What if I'm atheist and want a birthday cake? Are they supporting atheism with that cake? The hypocrisy here is obvious.

AFAIK, only Catholics take that view of divorce, but even so, does the baker know it's a remarriage? If they do, then yes, moral consistency would compel them to deny service to remarriages. Where does the Bible say celebrating a holiday is a sin? Do you really think observing the Sabbath applies to non-believers?

A cake is not an integral staple of an Islamic holiday nor your atheism. You're grasping at straws.

Apparently, you believe they exist. Why don't you choose to believe otherwise? If it's not part of your identity, why cling onto the belief?

Because it makes sense. I choose the beliefs for myself that make sense to me. I've changed my beliefs in my past. So it's not inconceivable I could change them again on this subject. If believing in unknown phenomena is even a belief. If I don't believe in them AS something specific, then there is little believing going on. I'm not believing in something. I'm believing in a variable.

Can you choose to belief something that doesn't make sense to you? No? Then you have no real choice, and it is part of your identity.
Yes, people change their minds all the time, when faced with new info...and gender-fluid change their gender identity based on their feelings.
How can one be who they are and the other be a choice, when neither is really perceived as a choice subjectively?

[Magical Realist]

It's only your belief (ideology) that says gay marriage (not being gay, as you so naively simplify) isn't a moral issue. Like I already said, those same people serve gays all the time, so it can't just be about them "being gay". As with all "sin", it's about what they do, not who they are. Ever heard of the phrase "hate the sin but love the sinner"? You can love an alcoholic without approving or wanting to contribute to their addiction.

They also serve weddings all the time, so they definitely aren't against marriage. There is nothing else different about a gay marriage other than that the spouses are gay. Everything else is the same. And that is the sole issue for the hateful baker. That is what they are offended by---the sexual orientation of the couple. It is discrimination against their state of being, not the ceremony or even the concept of marriage. Gays aren't entitled to be married, and gays aren't entitled to wedding cakes. And no..it's not about some sin gay people commit. There is no sinning going on in a gay wedding. Again the only thing different is that the couple is of the wrong sexual orientation.

AFAIK, only Catholics take that view of divorce, but even so, does the baker know it's a remarriage? If they do, then yes, moral consistency would compel them to deny service to remarriages. Where does the Bible say celebrating a holiday is a sin? Do you really think observing the Sabbath applies to non-believers?

Well if he is to be a good Christian he would definitely have to find out wouldn't he. Perhaps give all his customers a questionaire about their marital history so he can be sure not to be supporting their sinful adultry.

A cake is not an integral staple of an Islamic holiday nor your atheism. You're grasping at straws.

And the KKK doesn't marry people either and ask for special wedding cakes.

Can you choose to belief something that doesn't make sense to you? No? Then you have no real choice, and it is part of your identity.

I can always opt for beliefs that make more sense to me, as I have done so many times in the past. And my identity as who I am never changed as a result.

Yes, people change their minds all the time, when faced with new info...and gender-fluid change their gender identity based on their feelings.

And it is possible to change one's mind by learning and opening oneself to new ideas. We do it all the time. Well..at least some of us.

How can one be who they are and the other be a choice, when neither is really perceived as a choice subjectively?

Most transgender people would say they were always the gender they identify with now. Their inability to identify with their birth gender is what showed them this and led them to accept and affirm their true gender.

[Syne]

It's only your belief (ideology) that says gay marriage (not being gay, as you so naively simplify) isn't a moral issue. Like I already said, those same people serve gays all the time, so it can't just be about them "being gay". As with all "sin", it's about what they do, not who they are. Ever heard of the phrase "hate the sin but love the sinner"? You can love an alcoholic without approving or wanting to contribute to their addiction.

They also serve weddings all the time, so they definitely aren't against marriage. There is nothing else different about a gay marriage other than that the spouses are gay. Everything else is the same. And that is the sole issue for the hateful baker. That is what they are offended by---the sexual orientation of the couple. It is discrimination against their state of being, not the ceremony or even the concept of marriage. Gays aren't entitled to be married, and gays aren't entitled to wedding cakes. And no..it's not about some sin gay people commit. There is no sinning going on in a gay wedding. Again the only thing different is that the couple is of the wrong sexual orientation.

A marriage isn't who you are, it's what you do. I don't know of any businesses that can contribute to being gay in any way. But a marriage is an activity which, in the cases relevant here, requires the services of others to accomplish...hence contribution.

Again, if they were offended by orientation itself, why do they serve gays daily? Your whole little "hateful" ad hominem falls apart right there.
Really? A "man lying with a man as he does a woman" isn't a sin? Seems I've read that somewhere. Marriage is, among other things, the publicly witnessed sanction of sexual relations.

AFAIK, only Catholics take that view of divorce, but even so, does the baker know it's a remarriage? If they do, then yes, moral consistency would compel them to deny service to remarriages. Where does the Bible say celebrating a holiday is a sin? Do you really think observing the Sabbath applies to non-believers?

Well if he is to be a good Christian he would definitely have to find out wouldn't he. Perhaps give all his customers a questionaire about their marital history so he can be sure not to be supporting their sinful adultry.

The Bible admonished against being nosy (busybody), and no one can be held culpable in something they are unaware.

A cake is not an integral staple of an Islamic holiday nor your atheism. You're grasping at straws.

And the KKK doesn't marry people either and ask for special wedding cakes.  

Non-sequitur much? A KKK cake doesn't imply it's for a marriage.

Can you choose to belief something that doesn't make sense to you? No? Then you have no real choice, and it is part of your identity.

I can always opt for beliefs that make more sense to me, as I have done so many times in the past. And my identity as who I am never changed as a result.

Really? So when you learned Santa wasn't real, that didn't really change you any? No wonder you like UFOs and ghosts so much.

Yes, people change their minds all the time, when faced with new info...and gender-fluid change their gender identity based on their feelings.

And it is possible to change one's mind by learning and opening oneself to new ideas. We do it all the time. Well..at least some of us.

How does that substantially differ from any other change, like in the gender-fluid? Do you really have an actionable choice to deny what you deem factual?

How can one be who they are and the other be a choice, when neither is really perceived as a choice subjectively?

Most transgender people would say they were always the gender they identify with now. Their inability to identify with their birth gender is what showed them this and led them to accept and affirm their true gender.

Again, what about the gender-fluid?


And you still seem to be avoiding whether you believe in determinism, compatibilist or incompatibilist free will.

[Magical Realist]

A marriage isn't who you are, it's what you do. I don't know of any businesses that can contribute to being gay in any way. But a marriage is an activity which, in the cases relevant here, requires the services of others to accomplish...hence contribution.

They're not against marriage. They're against gay's being married. That's the source of their hate. The gay, not the marriage. They attack gays for kissing in public. They attack gays for teaching in schools. They attack gays for wanting to adopt children. They attack gay hate crime laws. They protest gay pride parades and film festivals. And they beat the hell out of and disown their gay kids. It's all about hating the gay. Don't you get that?

Again, if they were offended by orientation itself, why do they serve gays daily? Your whole little "hateful" ad hominem falls apart right there. Rolleyes

I don't know if homophobes do serve gays, if they find out they are gay. There are ways to kick people out of your business you don't like. Being rude to them or ignoring them. I'm sure that goes on all the time.

Really? A "man lying with a man as he does a woman" isn't a sin? Seems I've read that somewhere. Dodgy Marriage is, among other things, the publicly witnessed sanction of sexual relations.

They're not lying together during the wedding. They are just standing there before a priest. That's not a sin. But apparently just being gay is. Hence their bigotry.

The Bible admonished against being nosy (busybody), and no one can be held culpable in something they are unaware.

Noone ever accused Christian haters of following the whole Bible. Just the parts that accomodate their mallicious agendas.

Non-sequitur much? A KKK cake doesn't imply it's for a marriage

Then why are you bringing up people baking cakes for the KKK? It never happens because the KKK doesn't celebrate itself with cakes. They celebrate with cross burnings.

Really? So when you learned Santa wasn't real, that didn't really change you any? No wonder you like UFOs and ghosts so much. Tongue

It didn't change my identity. I was still the same person the next day.

How does that substantially differ from any other change, like in the gender-fluid? Do you really have an actionable choice to deny what you deem factual?

I have no idea what you mean by gender fluid. I don't even know why you're bringing that up. This is about Christians refusing service to gay people. Was it not enough to hate gays for wanting wedding cakes? Do you really need to find more minorities to bash in this thread?

[Syne]

A marriage isn't who you are, it's what you do. I don't know of any businesses that can contribute to being gay in any way. But a marriage is an activity which, in the cases relevant here, requires the services of others to accomplish...hence contribution.

They're not against marriage. They're against gay's being married. That's the source of their hate. The gay, not the marriage. They attack gays for kissing in public. They attack gays for teaching in schools. They attack gays for wanting to adopt children. They attack gay hate crime laws. They protest gay pride parades and film festivals. It's all about hating the gay. Don't you get that?

You're a disgusting bigot to keep inferring hate where the motivation is clearly the Bible, which does not teach hate at all.
It's about the tacit approval of sin by contribution in one case, and subjecting children to such sin in the other.
What I get is that you have a vested interest in making it all out to be hate, regardless of the dearth of evidence.

Again, if they were offended by orientation itself, why do they serve gays daily? Your whole little "hateful" ad hominem falls apart right there.  Rolleyes

I don't know if homophobes do serve gays, if they find out they are gay. There are ways to kick people out of your business you don't like. Being rude to them or ignoring them. I'm sure that goes on all the time.

All of the people who have refused services for gay weddings knowingly served gays regularly. You'd know that if you weren't such a blinkered bigot. If these people were practiced at discriminating solely by being rude or ignoring people, why wouldn't they just do that to get rid of gay wedding business as well?

You don't really think through any of your arguments, do you?

Really? A "man lying with a man as he does a woman" isn't a sin? Seems I've read that somewhere.   Marriage is, among other things, the publicly witnessed sanction of sexual relations.

They're not lying together during the wedding. They are just standing there before a priest. That's not a sin. But apparently just being gay is. Hence their bigotry.

Hence "publicly witnessed sanction of sexual relations." It is a ceremony that removes any stigma from sexual relations. If the sexual relations are a sin, sanctioning them is as well. Just like hiring an killer is tantamount to murder.

We get it, you think you're persecuted.

The Bible admonished against being nosy (busybody), and no one can be held culpable in something they are unaware.

Noone ever accused Christian haters of following the whole Bible. Just the parts that accomodate their mallicious agendas.

So you're arguing both that they should deny service to remarriages AND that they shouldn't heed admonitions against being a busybody? Make up your mind, mate.

Non-sequitur much? A KKK cake doesn't imply it's for a marriage

Then why are you bringing up people baking cakes for the KKK? It never happens because the KKK doesn't celebrate itself with cakes. They celebrate with cross burnings.

It's called argument from analogy. Are you saying that the KKK NEVER requires outside services for any event? That's one hell of a broad assumption.

Really? So when you learned Santa wasn't real, that didn't really change you any? No wonder you like UFOs and ghosts so much.  

It didn't change my identity. I was still the same person the next day.

Yeah, just as naive and gullible as the previous.

How does that substantially differ from any other change, like in the gender-fluid? Do you really have an actionable choice to deny what you deem factual?

I have no idea what you mean by gender fluid. I don't even know why you're bringing that up. This is about Christians refusing service to gay people.

Look up the subcategories of genderqueer. If you weren't such a bigot, you'd easily see the comparison between a fluid gender identity, that can vary day to day, and the deep seated beliefs people hold.

[Magical Realist]

You're a disgusting bigot to keep inferring hate where the motivation is clearly the Bible, which does not teach hate at all.

The Bible is all about who to hate and judge. Why don't you revisit Paul's epistles sometime and tally all the names for damned sinners that he wrote down: backbiters, effeminate, gossipers, fornicators, adulterers, liars, drunkards, idol worshippers, sorcerers, etc The list goes on and on.

It's about the tacit approval of sin by contribution in one case, and subjecting children to such sin in the other.
What I get is that you have a vested interest in making it all out to be hate, regardless of the dearth of evidence.

No it isn't. It's about demonizing and dehumanizing good people on nothing more than the fact they are gay. That's what it's always been about. Using religion as an excuse to hate and persecute people who are different.

All of the people who have refused services for gay weddings knowingly served gays regularly. You'd know that if you weren't such a blinkered bigot. If these people were practiced at discriminating solely by being rude or ignoring people, why wouldn't they just do that to get rid of gay wedding business as well?

They do. And gay people know when they're being targeted. Which is what lands them in court with a big ass lawsuit.

Hence "publicly witnessed sanction of sexual relations." It is a ceremony that removes any stigma from sexual relations. If the sexual relations are a sin, sanctioning them is as well. Just like hiring an killer is tantamount to murder.

No. Marriage is about love and devotion and a lifelong committment to a family, which is something homophobes can't bear to see sanctioned for gay people. That would make them equal human beings, and christian haters can't have that. It's all about hating the gay. Hating our state of being. No matter what we do or say.

So you're arguing both that they should deny service to remarriages AND that they shouldn't heed admonitions against being a busybody? Make up your mind, mate.

I'm saying they are hypocrites who only cherry pick the parts of Bible that accomodate their hate and selfishness while overlooking the parts about compassion and humility.

It's called argument from analogy. Are you saying that the KKK NEVER requires outside services for any event? That's one hell of a broad assumption.

It's a nonissue because the KKK doesn't ask bakers to bake cakes for them supporting their creed. It doesn't happen.

Look up the subcategories of genderqueer. If you weren't such a bigot, you'd easily see the comparison between a fluid gender identity, that can vary day to day, and the deep seated beliefs people hold.

Sounds like some weird sexual fetish you made up. You really think there are people who identify as man and woman over the course of a week? lol! Whatever floats your boat..

[Syne]

The Bible is all about who to hate and judge. Why don't you revisit Paul's epistles sometime and tally all the names for damned sinners that he wrote down: backbiters, effeminate, gossipers, fornicators, adulterers, liars, drunkards, idol worshippers, sorcerers, etc The list goes on and on.

LOL! Those are descriptors of actual sinful actions. Just like me calling you a bigot because you demonstrably stereotype people to demonize them.

It's about the tacit approval of sin by contribution in one case, and subjecting children to such sin in the other.
What I get is that you have a vested interest in making it all out to be hate, regardless of the dearth of evidence.

No it isn't. It's about demonizing and dehumanizing good people on nothing more than the fact they are gay. That's what it's always been about. Using religion as an excuse to hate and persecute people who are different.

Says the bigot with only bare assertions.

All of the people who have refused services for gay weddings knowingly served gays regularly. You'd know that if you weren't such a blinkered bigot. If these people were practiced at discriminating solely by being rude or ignoring people, why wouldn't they just do that to get rid of gay wedding business as well?

They do. And gay people know when they're being targeted. Which is what lands them in court with a big ass lawsuit.

Rudeness is not a legally provable discrimination. You just keep making unsupported bare assertions to justify your obvious bigotry.

Hence "publicly witnessed sanction of sexual relations." It is a ceremony that removes any stigma from sexual relations. If the sexual relations are a sin, sanctioning them is as well. Just like hiring an killer is tantamount to murder.

No. Marriage is about love and devotion and a lifelong committment to a family, which is something homophobes can't bear to see sanctioned for gay people. That would make them equal human beings, and christian haters can't have that. It's all about hating the gay. Hating our state of being. No matter what we do or say.

So you think marriage has nothing to do with sex? You do know how babies, and thus families, are made, right?
They don't hate you, despite what you do or say. But your bigoted hate of them blinds you to that simple fact.
Why do you think Milo Yiannopoulos was accepted by many of the right? Because without saying all the hateful, bigoted things you are saying here, he allowed their disinterest in his personal life to eclipse their defense of your vile stereotypes.

It's called argument from analogy. Are you saying that the KKK NEVER requires outside services for any event? That's one hell of a broad assumption.

It's a nonissue because the KKK doesn't ask bakers to bake cakes for them supporting their creed. It doesn't happen.

Again, it's called analogy. Look it up.

Here's some religious discrimination:

So Shoebat.com decided to call some 13 prominent pro-gay bakers in a row. Each one denied us the right to have “Gay Marriage Is Wrong” on a cake and even used deviant insults and obscenities against us. One baker even said all sorts of profanities against Christians and ended the conversation by saying that she will make me a cookie with a large phallus on it. - http://shoebat.com/2014/12/12/christian-...ing-video/

He made a tape of himself calling Florida-based bakery “Cut the Cake” and asking them to make a cake decorated with the words, “We do not support gay marriage.” As Feuerstein expected, the bakery – which calls itself LGBT-friendly and advertises same-sex “wedding” services in gay publications – refused and hung up the phone.

"We wanted to see if a pro-LGBT bakery would bake a cake for something that it was opposed to what they believed in,” Feuerstein told Florida’s WESH 2 News, “and you know what, I actually believe that Cut the Cake has every right as an American to refuse to print that on a cake.” - https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/this-e...-cake.-now

These are denial of service solely on the basis of the religious beliefs of the customer. I don't hear you crying about those, even though religion is an equally protected class.

Look up the subcategories of genderqueer. If you weren't such a bigot, you'd easily see the comparison between a fluid gender identity, that can vary day to day, and the deep seated beliefs people hold

Sounds like some weird sexual fetish you made up. You really think there are people who identify as man and woman over the course of a week? lol! Whatever floats your boat..

Genderqueer
"Genderqueer people may identify as one or more of the following:
...
moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity (genderfluid)"


"For some people, gender is not just about being male or female; in fact, how one identifies can change every day or even every few hours.
Gender fluidity, when gender expression shifts between masculine and feminine, can be displayed in how we dress, express and describe ourselves. " - http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/13/living/gender-fluid-feat/

Educate yourself. What are you, homosupremacist? Gender-binary supremacist? Or just a run of the mill, all around bigot?

[Magical Realist]

Those are descriptors of actual sinful actions. Just like me calling you a bigot because you demonstrably stereotype people to demonize them.

No..those are excuses to condemn and hate people who have traits you don't personally like. There's no such thing as sin.

Rudeness is not a legally provable discrimination. You just keep making unsupported bare assertions to justify your obvious bigotry.

It is when it is accompanied by a refusal to bake a wedding cake because the customer is gay.

So you think marriage has nothing to do with sex?

In an age where everybody is having sex outside of marriage no... marriage doesn't have much of anything to do with sex. People do that anyway. It's about love and committment. Traits you probably have no clue about.

Again, it's called analogy. Look it up.

It's fantasy scenario you made up because you have nothing real to demonstrate your point with.

These are denial of service solely on the basis of the religious beliefs of the customer. I don't hear you crying about those, even though religion is an equally protected class.

It's an ideology and as such IS a moral issue. Being gay isn't an ideology. I thought we went over this already. You can't discriminate on the basis of sexual orienation.

For some people, gender is not just about being male or female; in fact, how one identifies can change every day or even every few hours.
Gender fluidity, when gender expression shifts between masculine and feminine, can be displayed in how we dress, express and describe ourselves. " - http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/13/living/gender-fluid-feat/

Sounds like some bullshit to me. I'm not surprised you buy into it.

[Syne]

Those are descriptors of actual sinful actions. Just like me calling you a bigot because you demonstrably stereotype people to demonize them.

No..those are excuses to condemn and hate people who have traits you don't personally like. There's no such thing as sin.

So you like backbiters, gossipers, liars, etc.? Maybe you're just pretty vile yourself, especially considering your constant projection of your own hate onto others. While most Christians don't hate the sinner, you obviously hate all Christians.

Rudeness is not a legally provable discrimination. You just keep making unsupported bare assertions to justify your obvious bigotry.

It is when it is accompanied by a refusal to bake a wedding cake because the customer is gay.

No, only the refusal of service is legally actionable. Look it up.

So you think marriage has nothing to do with sex?

In an age where everybody is having sex outside of marriage no... marriage doesn't have much of anything to do with sex. People do that anyway. It's about love and committment. Traits you probably have no clue about.

Yes, homosexuals are known to be much more promiscuous than heterosexuals.

Again, it's called analogy. Look it up.

It's fantasy scenario you made up because you have nothing real to demonstrate your point with.

 
You're obviously ignoring the actual, similar cases of religious discrimination, because you're a bigoted hypocrite. You're so filled with hate that you couldn't stand to admit that religion is an equally protected class as orientation. As with ghosts, you only see what you want to see.

These are denial of service solely on the basis of the religious beliefs of the customer. I don't hear you crying about those, even though religion is an equally protected class.

It's an ideology and as such IS a moral issue. Being gay isn't an ideology. I thought we went over this already. You can't discriminate on the basis of sexual orienation.

You can't discrimination against someone due to their religion either. Look it up.

For some people, gender is not just about being male or female; in fact, how one identifies can change every day or even every few hours.
Gender fluidity, when gender expression shifts between masculine and feminine, can be displayed in how we dress, express and describe ourselves. " - http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/13/living/gender-fluid-feat/

Sounds like some bullshit to me. I'm not surprised you buy into it.

So you expect others to take you seriously about your aberrant, subjective orientation, but you refuse to accept those of others? Hypocrite.
Personally, I think homosexuality, genderfluid, etc. are equally mental disorders. It's called consistency. You might need to look that up as well.

[Magical Realist]

You just get nastier and more insulting with every post don't you? One could probably plot it on a graph it's so predictable. I have to think this is you sinking into ad homs and vitriole because you can't defend your own homophobic bigotry. I get that. Hating us is bad enough. But trying to defend that rationally only exposes that hostilty more and more. I feel sorry for you knowing how hatred works. How it ends up eating you up inside leaving only a cold shell of something inhuman and pathetic. So be it, if that's the course you choose for yourself. You're all a dying breed anyway. Gays can join the military now. They can adopt kids. They are getting elected to public office. And they can get married in all 50 states. How does it feel to be the endangered species now? To be a shrinking minority on the outside looking in for a change?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...sexuality/