Church & India + Understanding other religions + Islamic theologians or philosophers?

#1
When Will The Church Stop Deceiving Children?
https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/when-will-...g-children

EXCERPT: Several news outlets recently published a report that said many four- to five-year-old “tiny tots” had written a “letter” to Prime Minister Narendra Modi, requesting him to secure the release of an evangelist Jesuit from the clutches of terror group Islamic State (IS). Let’s leave aside the pertinent question of how four- to five-year-olds came to ask for the release of a Jesuit missionary from the custody of IS. Let’s also leave aside the equally pertinent question of how these kids managed to write a coherent letter (even as they were helped by their parents and the church). Instead, what this article will focus on is the “ends justify the means” mentality of the church. Here are some points to consider.

[...] Having said this, here is my advice. Do write to the Prime Minister asking for his help in freeing the abducted pastor, who happens to be an Indian citizen. But, also, some day, write to the church demanding that it should not put Indian lives at risk to further their religious goals. It should not put adherence to the church ahead of their loyalty to the Indian Constitution. More importantly, it should not use children without a voice for pursuing their religio-political goals. Yes, the truth may hurt now. But it also liberates. Our wish for you is that this truth sets you free....



Understanding other religions is fundamental to citizenship
https://aeon.co/ideas/understanding-othe...itizenship

EXCERPT: By walking down the street of any major city, you are likely to see more diversity than an 18th-century explorer did in a lifetime. People with very different ideas of how society should function must live together, and there is no idea more divisive than that of religion. Many of the most important moral disagreements break out along religious lines. Indeed, differing religious views on freedom, sexuality and justice threaten social cohesion. That must not be allowed to happen.

One crucial way that people can best learn to live with one another is by increasing their religious literacy. In 1945, the British author C S Lewis said that one will gain greater insight into other belief systems by stepping inside and looking ‘along’ them, rather than looking ‘at’ them from the outside. He explained this by analogy. Think of the difference in the experience of looking at a beam of light through a window, in comparison with the experience of looking along it. It is from within that we can test a system’s internal consistency and its ability to form and inform the believer. The idea is to see religion not merely as a set of propositions held in the head, but, in the words of the Canadian philosopher Charles Taylor, as a ‘lived experience’. The key to this kind of understanding is dialogue....

[...]

In educational theory, religious literacy could be considered a ‘threshold concept’ for 21st-century citizenship. The word threshold comes from the word threshing: to separate the wheat from the chaff, filtering out what does not nourish in order to be left with what does. A concept that establishes a threshold is one that disabuses us of superficial understandings, and creates something more profound, complex and paradigmatic. For example, a threshold concept in physics would be understanding ‘temperature gradient’, or in literature it could be learning to deconstruct text for analysis. They are a boundary through which one must pass in order to advance in the understanding of a subject, allowing one a fuller grasp of a discipline. Similarly, in the study of religion, and indeed global citizenship, religious literacy should also be deemed a threshold concept, as it moves towards a perspectival understanding of religion rather than a reductionist one. Religion moves from being a set of propositions and practices, to an animating force behind human behaviour – something that needs to be heard in its own key. Teaching religious literacy requires a focus on process rather than content....



If Aquinas is a philosopher then so are the Islamic theologians
https://aeon.co/ideas/if-aquinas-is-a-ph...heologians

EXCERPT: Maybe I’m just an optimist, but I think people today mostly acknowledge the importance and originality of philosophy in the Islamic world. Would any scholar now say in print, as Bertrand Russell notoriously did in his History of Western Philosophy (written in 1945), that ‘Arabic philosophy is not important as original thought. Men like Avicenna and Averroes are essentially commentators’? I certainly hope not. But even if we now see more clearly, we still have blindspots. The thinkers taken seriously as ‘philosophers’ are typically the authors Russell dismissed as mere commentators, men such as al-Kindī, al-Fārābī, Avicenna, and Averroes. Though they were far from unoriginal, they were indeed enthusiasts for Aristotle and other Greek authors. Yet these were not the only intellectuals and rationalists of their time, nor did rationalism and philosophical reflection die with Averroes at the end of the 12th century, as is still often believed. Throughout Islamic history, many of the figures of interest and relevance to the historian of philosophy were not Aristotelians, but practitioners of kalām, which is usually translated as ‘theology’....
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#2
(Feb 20, 2017 03:29 AM)C C Wrote: When Will The Church Stop Deceiving Children?
https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/when-will-...g-children

EXCERPT: Several news outlets recently published a report that said many four- to five-year-old “tiny tots” had written a “letter” to Prime Minister Narendra Modi, requesting him to secure the release of an evangelist Jesuit from the clutches of terror group Islamic State (IS). Let’s leave aside the pertinent question of how four- to five-year-olds came to ask for the release of a Jesuit missionary from the custody of IS. Let’s also leave aside the equally pertinent question of how these kids managed to write a coherent letter (even as they were helped by their parents and the church). Instead, what this article will focus on is the “ends justify the means” mentality of the church. Here are some points to consider.

[...] Having said this, here is my advice. Do write to the Prime Minister asking for his help in freeing the abducted pastor, who happens to be an Indian citizen. But, also, some day, write to the church demanding that it should not put Indian lives at risk to further their religious goals. It should not put adherence to the church ahead of their loyalty to the Indian Constitution. More importantly, it should not use children without a voice for pursuing their religio-political goals. Yes, the truth may hurt now. But it also liberates. Our wish for you is that this truth sets you free....




Understanding other religions is fundamental to citizenship
https://aeon.co/ideas/understanding-othe...itizenship

EXCERPT: By walking down the street of any major city, you are likely to see more diversity than an 18th-century explorer did in a lifetime. People with very different ideas of how society should function must live together, and there is no idea more divisive than that of religion. Many of the most important moral disagreements break out along religious lines. Indeed, differing religious views on freedom, sexuality and justice threaten social cohesion. That must not be allowed to happen.

One crucial way that people can best learn to live with one another is by increasing their religious literacy. In 1945, the British author C S Lewis said that one will gain greater insight into other belief systems by stepping inside and looking ‘along’ them, rather than looking ‘at’ them from the outside. He explained this by analogy. Think of the difference in the experience of looking at a beam of light through a window, in comparison with the experience of looking along it. It is from within that we can test a system’s internal consistency and its ability to form and inform the believer. The idea is to see religion not merely as a set of propositions held in the head, but, in the words of the Canadian philosopher Charles Taylor, as a ‘lived experience’. The key to this kind of understanding is dialogue....

[...]

In educational theory, religious literacy could be considered a ‘threshold concept’ for 21st-century citizenship. The word threshold comes from the word threshing: to separate the wheat from the chaff, filtering out what does not nourish in order to be left with what does. A concept that establishes a threshold is one that disabuses us of superficial understandings, and creates something more profound, complex and paradigmatic. For example, a threshold concept in physics would be understanding ‘temperature gradient’, or in literature it could be learning to deconstruct text for analysis. They are a boundary through which one must pass in order to advance in the understanding of a subject, allowing one a fuller grasp of a discipline. Similarly, in the study of religion, and indeed global citizenship, religious literacy should also be deemed a threshold concept, as it moves towards a perspectival understanding of religion rather than a reductionist one. Religion moves from being a set of propositions and practices, to an animating force behind human behaviour – something that needs to be heard in its own key. Teaching religious literacy requires a focus on process rather than content....




If Aquinas is a philosopher then so are the Islamic theologians
https://aeon.co/ideas/if-aquinas-is-a-ph...heologians

EXCERPT: Maybe I’m just an optimist, but I think people today mostly acknowledge the importance and originality of philosophy in the Islamic world. Would any scholar now say in print, as Bertrand Russell notoriously did in his History of Western Philosophy (written in 1945), that ‘Arabic philosophy is not important as original thought. Men like Avicenna and Averroes are essentially commentators’? I certainly hope not. But even if we now see more clearly, we still have blindspots. The thinkers taken seriously as ‘philosophers’ are typically the authors Russell dismissed as mere commentators, men such as al-Kindī, al-Fārābī, Avicenna, and Averroes. Though they were far from unoriginal, they were indeed enthusiasts for Aristotle and other Greek authors. Yet these were not the only intellectuals and rationalists of their time, nor did rationalism and philosophical reflection die with Averroes at the end of the 12th century, as is still often believed. Throughout Islamic history, many of the figures of interest and relevance to the historian of philosophy were not Aristotelians, but practitioners of kalām, which is usually translated as ‘theology’....

the big issue intelligent people have now is trying to seperate real religious organisations from political fraud groups who pretend to be religious just to illicit a result for financial or power gains.
there is an ever growing number for church groups created which are in reality political covert groups who seek to create reactionary miss infromation to popularise extremist concepts.

currently it has been normalised during the last US general election to have religious groups openely Campaigning and horse trading moral concepts in exchange for power and money.
this last US election can clearly be defined as where church and state have become one single financial animal(in the USA).
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#3
I think understanding religion would be a great asset. That said, the more religions you understand the better equipped one is to be a great leader. That leader would need to be some pretty intelligent person. So my idea is to have the world's most intelligent people rule the planet. 

I don't see that happening right now. Probably because ...well....they're too f***ing smart. The intelligent probably understand religion better than anybody and realize just how ridiculous it can get. If I look at myself it is patently clear that I don't match up with the geniuses of the world so I'll never understand religion....and there's a hell of a lot more like me than not. So what does a power seeker do? You play the game. I think today's leaders don't have to understand religion, just the power of it.
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#4
(Feb 20, 2017 03:29 AM)C C Wrote: https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/when-will-...g-children
[...] Having said this, here is my advice. Do write to the Prime Minister asking for his help in freeing the abducted pastor, who happens to be an Indian citizen. But, also, some day, write to the church demanding that it should not put Indian lives at risk to further their religious goals. It should not put adherence to the church ahead of their loyalty to the Indian Constitution. More importantly, it should not use children without a voice for pursuing their religio-political goals. Yes, the truth may hurt now. But it also liberates. Our wish for you is that this truth sets you free....

Oh, like using children in political ads for things like Hilary, gun control, feminism, etc.?
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#5
(Feb 20, 2017 04:28 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I think understanding religion would be a great asset. That said, the more religions you understand the better equipped one is to be a great leader. That leader would need to be some pretty intelligent person. So my idea is to have the world's most intelligent people rule the planet. 

I don't see that happening right now. Probably because ...well....they're too f***ing smart. The intelligent probably understand religion better than anybody and realize just how ridiculous it can get. If I look at myself it is patently clear that I don't match up with the geniuses of the world so I'll never understand religion....and there's a hell of a lot more like me than not. So what does a power seeker do? You play the game. I think today's leaders don't have to understand religion, just the power of it.

Quote:So what does a power seeker do?

now there is a fascinating and extremely current question regarding the global media reporting Global movement toward nationalism.
handing people who seek power more power, does not always give the best result for the majority(assuming one prefers democracy).

simplistically there are 2 types
1 a person who seeks power to give others the illusion of power in any form so that power is directed back at them for them to have it validated in what ever form they feel the need for.
2 a person who seeks power to fulfil a desire to feel powerful(more like an adrenalin junky) getting drunk on power.
3 which is extremely rare is the ulturistic person who seeks power to change things for the betterment of others in a percieved paradigm(assuming they are not projecting their own lust,s phobia's want's fetishes upon others.)

the desire to control others Vs the desire to control the self and a/the manifest desire to help others or hurt others.

breaking the chains of bi-polar proxy paradigms is probably a current question that needs to be asked along side the bi-partisan qwasi dicotomy of intellectual morality of sociological engineering(people telling others how to live their life via laws etc).

(Feb 20, 2017 06:09 PM)Syne Wrote:
(Feb 20, 2017 03:29 AM)C C Wrote: https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/when-will-...g-children
[...] Having said this, here is my advice. Do write to the Prime Minister asking for his help in freeing the abducted pastor, who happens to be an Indian citizen. But, also, some day, write to the church demanding that it should not put Indian lives at risk to further their religious goals. It should not put adherence to the church ahead of their loyalty to the Indian Constitution. More importantly, it should not use children without a voice for pursuing their religio-political goals. Yes, the truth may hurt now. But it also liberates. Our wish for you is that this truth sets you free....

Oh, like using children in political ads for things like Hilary, gun control, feminism, etc.?


the right use the "family values" lie to cover their intrusion into the private lifes of others and attempt to make laws that invade the private lifes of the average person claiming those who oppose such things are fringe minority people who should not have legal representation (quite bizar how that is normalised by soo many).

i trust you are equally as vocal in opposing jesus camp type practices
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp
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#6
(Feb 20, 2017 06:31 PM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: the right use the "family values" lie to cover their intrusion into the private lifes of others and attempt to make laws that invade the private lifes of the average person claiming those who oppose such things are fringe minority people who should not have legal representation (quite bizar how that is normalised by soo many).

i trust you are equally as vocal in opposing jesus camp type practices
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

"Family values" are just personal values that inform political, or any other, choices. You'd have to be schizophrenic for your personal beliefs to have no influence on your choices. What intrusions? Abortion? Science says it's human life.
Never seen Jesus Camp, so I can only say that I support teaching religion, but not indoctrination. Children should not be made to feel they bear the weight of the world. Do you think children should be so indoctrinated that they cry and wail about a political outcome (Trump winning)? Or do you think children should be allowed to just be children?
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#7
(Feb 20, 2017 07:41 PM)Syne Wrote:
(Feb 20, 2017 06:31 PM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: the right use the "family values" lie to cover their intrusion into the private lifes of others and attempt to make laws that invade the private lifes of the average person claiming those who oppose such things are fringe minority people who should not have legal representation (quite bizar how that is normalised by soo many).

i trust you are equally as vocal in opposing jesus camp type practices
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

"Family values" are just personal values that inform political, or any other, choices. You'd have to be schizophrenic for your personal beliefs to have no influence on your choices. What intrusions? Abortion? Science says it's human life.
Never seen Jesus Camp, so I can only say that I support teaching religion, but not indoctrination. Children should not be made to feel they bear the weight of the world. Do you think children should be so indoctrinated that they cry and wail about a political outcome (Trump winning)? Or do you think children should be allowed to just be children?

"let children just be children" is a completely loaded statement.

i suggest you go to youtube and search "Jesus camp" and watch one of the many documentarys when you have a strong stomach and something strong to drink handy.
i do warn you though it is extremely disturbing.
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#8
(Feb 20, 2017 07:56 PM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote:
(Feb 20, 2017 07:41 PM)Syne Wrote: "Family values" are just personal values that inform political, or any other, choices. You'd have to be schizophrenic for your personal beliefs to have no influence on your choices. What intrusions? Abortion? Science says it's human life.
Never seen Jesus Camp, so I can only say that I support teaching religion, but not indoctrination. Children should not be made to feel they bear the weight of the world. Do you think children should be so indoctrinated that they cry and wail about a political outcome (Trump winning)? Or do you think children should be allowed to just be children?

"let children just be children" is a completely loaded statement.

What else should children be? Priests? Holy icons? Adults? Sex objects?

Quote:i suggest you go to youtube and search "Jesus camp" and watch one of the many documentarys when you have a strong stomach and something strong to drink handy.
i do warn you though it is extremely disturbing.

I already said I'm again indoctrination. How much clearer do you need it spelt out? Rolleyes


You didn't answer my question. What intrusions?
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#9
(Feb 20, 2017 08:05 PM)Syne Wrote:
(Feb 20, 2017 07:56 PM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote:
(Feb 20, 2017 07:41 PM)Syne Wrote: "Family values" are just personal values that inform political, or any other, choices. You'd have to be schizophrenic for your personal beliefs to have no influence on your choices. What intrusions? Abortion? Science says it's human life.
Never seen Jesus Camp, so I can only say that I support teaching religion, but not indoctrination. Children should not be made to feel they bear the weight of the world. Do you think children should be so indoctrinated that they cry and wail about a political outcome (Trump winning)? Or do you think children should be allowed to just be children?

"let children just be children" is a completely loaded statement.

What else should children be? Priests? Holy icons? Adults? Sex objects?

Quote:i suggest you go to youtube and search "Jesus camp" and watch one of the many documentarys when you have a strong stomach and something strong to drink handy.
i do warn you though it is extremely disturbing.

I already said I'm again indoctrination. How much clearer do you need it spelt out?  Rolleyes


You didn't answer my question. What intrusions?

"intrusions" = laws  i probably should have not used such a immotively loaded word.

children as stereo types... ?
bi-partisan... bi-polar ?
social stereo types .. the nerd, the jock, the geek, the pretty one, the ugly one etc etc...

it confounds me how some groups politacise the indoctrination of children into religion and call it personal freedoms of the adult.
just as equally as they supplant personality stereo types on to them and brainwash them into becoming a cookie cutter personality to serve the egos of the adults and their religious egos.
(though globally [statistically]it is considered quite normal)

i am curious about your point of "personal values" and a sense of detraction from its projected influence to impeed other peoples choices.
at what point ?
where does the gray line be drawn ?
is it gray or bright red ? etc etc...

does "indoctrination" also include religous schools ? (just curious how far your libertarinism extends to the rights of the indiviidual)
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#10
(Feb 20, 2017 09:20 PM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: "intrusions" = laws  i probably should have not used such a immotively loaded word.

What laws? What "laws that invade the private lifes of the average person"? Is it some sort of secret? Why is this like pulling teeth?

Quote:children as stereo types... ?
bi-partisan... bi-polar ?
social stereo types .. the nerd, the jock, the geek, the pretty one, the ugly one etc etc...

Children will sort themselves into a pecking order. And? Why would that making letting them be children a bad thing?

Quote:it confounds me how some groups politacise the indoctrination of children into religion and call it personal freedoms of the adult.
just as equally as they supplant personality stereo types on to them and brainwash them into becoming a cookie cutter personality to serve the egos of the adults and their religious egos.
(though globally [statistically]it is considered quite normal)

If you think that's unique to the religious, you're deluded.

Quote:i am curious about your point of "personal values" and a sense of detraction from its projected influence to impeed other peoples choices.
at what point ?
where does the gray line be drawn ?
is it gray or bright red ? etc etc...

What "other peoples choices"?

Quote:does "indoctrination" also include religous schools ? (just curious how far your libertarinism extends to the rights of the indiviidual)
Parents have the responsibility to instill values, but it shouldn't become unquestioning indoctrination.
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