The morality behind veganism

[Leigha]

I must not be articulating my point well enough. I'm not suggesting that people who don't feel the way I do, are somehow in the wrong. I'm not sure how many ways I can state that, but I guess people choose to read what they wish.

[Secular Sanity]

Vegan/vegetarianism is a great topic and for many reasons, people are choosing to eat less meat. Greater awareness of the means of production, environmental impacts and resources used as well as the end cost being some of the major points that come up. For many people it is becoming a fiscal decision even more than a moral one, and if people had to select and process their own meat, the visceral involvement would likely place many more on the meatless path. 

It is theorized that eating meat and the learned skill of cooking contributed to the evolutionary increase in our brain size.

Some people have even claimed that cooperative hunting contributed to our development of language.  I’m not so sure, though.  A lot of animals hunt together in groups.

I watched this video with Peter Singer and Richard Dawkins.  I agree with Dawkins.  It’s ethically indefensible.

Some people can justify it by using an appeal to nature, but nature does not convey moral values.  We could use that argument to support almost any crime.  Every time I try to think up a good reason to keep eating meat, e.g., humane conditions with a painless death, that old Twilight Zone episode, "To Serve Man" keeps popping into my head.  

https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/vrabZFhnBIA

Even knowing that it’s unethical, I will most likely continue to eat meat.  We have this great restaurant here that has the best pork tenderloin with blackberry wine sauce.  It’s to die for…bwahaha!  

Sorry.  

[stryder]

I have restored this thread since the discussion itself is valid.

Often as a Vegan (and previous Vegetarian) I've often been in situations where it's awkward and might appear like I'm dictating the terms of what people eat, however I've never meant to do that. For instance in a recent trip to the US with my family, they often wanted to eat in a number of roadside diners etc, however I am super finicky about what it is I'm eating. I didn't want to spoil it for them however but it generated problems where I would want to sit in the car waiting for them to return and then just binge on junk foods to make up for the lack of a meal or it would cause arguments where they assumed I could find something on the menu where I knew there would be no point looking.

Luckily the further south we travelled through Florida the more vegan places were available to choose from, In fact there's a nice place in Key West I would recommend which you can find through most phone smart apps. Incidentally I do intend to check out a restaurant in Savannah, GA the next time I'm that way and Mellow Mushroom does/did vegan pizzas.

The problem is that to be probably Vegan borders on Agoraphobia as you are either worrying about what/where you eat, or worrying about how people around you are effected by the limitations of your diet.

[Leigha]

I have restored this thread since the discussion itself is valid.

Often as a Vegan (and previous Vegetarian) I've often been in situations where it's awkward and might appear like I'm dictating the terms of what people eat, however I've never meant to do that. For instance in a recent trip to the US with my family, they often wanted to eat in a number of roadside diners etc, however I am super finicky about what it is I'm eating. I didn't want to spoil it for them however but it generated problems where I would want to sit in the car waiting for them to return and then just binge on junk foods to make up for the lack of a meal or it would cause arguments where they assumed I could find something on the menu where I knew there would be no point looking.

Luckily the further south we travelled through Florida the more vegan places were available to choose from, In fact there's a nice place in Key West I would recommend which you can find through most phone smart apps. Incidentally I do intend to check out a restaurant in Savannah, GA the next time I'm that way and Mellow Mushroom does/did vegan pizzas.

The problem is that to be probably Vegan borders on Agoraphobia as you are either worrying about what/where you eat, or worrying about how people around you are effected by the limitations of your diet.

Vegan pizza *mmmm*

I'm wondering something, stryder - how long did it take you to fully adopt the lifestyle? There are some really great vegan/vegetarian websites out there that have been helpful, too.

[scheherazade]

Thank you for restoring the thread, Stryder, and Leigha, I sincerely hope you did not take my various perspectives shared as a criticism in any way. I am completely for transparency in labeling the source and content of all of our food so that customers can make informed decisions. Whatever choices people make, it does not make them any less 'moral' in my sight because too often, it is circumstances that dictates the terms.

For those who are fortunate to have the option of deciding on what fare to ingest, I am happy for you as not everyone has this option.

As mentioned in an earlier post, it did seem a bit extreme to me when people chose to select the vegan option for an evolved carnivorous pet but it is an interesting experiment to observe. Our domestic species are quite adaptable though it does beg the question of what their preference might be free of such constraint. Is it cruel to impose these parameters on your pet would be the question?

Given that the indigenous peoples more than once intervened to point out dietary deficiencies to the early explorers of North America, I would hesitate to impose a vegan ideology upon them also. Unfortunately, those who have adapted the standard North American diet seem to be even more prone to type 2 diabetes than the general population and diabetes kills more people than cancer but that would be a good topic for another thread.  http://www.research.utoronto.ca/why-do-a...-diabetes/

[Leigha]

You've always been respectful even if you disagree, scheherazade. I think that meaningful criticism is necessary in life, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions. 

One of my anti-vegan friends told me that there are definitely horror stories in some of the factory farms, but far from most. He said that he's not looking to sway my opinion, but only asks that I choose based on ENOUGH facts, and not just a few facts sprinkled with emotion. He said that he probably will cease eating bacon because of the information I shared with him (bacon, while super yummy, isn't exactly good for us) but it's because the information was from reputable sources. He encourages me not to only view articles and information from PETA and its affiliates, but to find objective news sources that don't have ''an agenda.'' It's a learning experience, like everything else. 

[stryder]

Vegan pizza *mmmm*

I'm wondering something, stryder - how long did it take you to fully adopt the lifestyle? There are some really great vegan/vegetarian websites out there that have been helpful, too.

I was vegetarian from the age of about 7, but didn't really go vegan until 36.  I couldn't easily find a replacement for milk/cheese initially, however in recent years that's no longer an issue.
There is far more available nowadays compared to my youth, where the only vegetarian foods were dry-mixes at healthfood stores if you weren't prepared to make your own beanburgers etc.

Most supermarkets have at least a couple of items that can be used, even if it's just Tofu.  (I've been using that a lot more since moving from eating Quorn)

[Syne]

One of my anti-vegan friends told me that there are definitely horror stories in some of the factory farms, but far from most. He said that he's not looking to sway my opinion, but only asks that I choose based on ENOUGH facts, and not just a few facts sprinkled with emotion. He said that he probably will cease eating bacon because of the information I shared with him (bacon, while super yummy, isn't exactly good for us) but it's because the information was from reputable sources. He encourages me not to only view articles and information from PETA and its affiliates, but to find objective news sources that don't have ''an agenda.'' It's a learning experience, like everything else. 

Sometimes these messages are better received when coming from a friend IRL.

[Leigha]

One of my anti-vegan friends told me that there are definitely horror stories in some of the factory farms, but far from most. He said that he's not looking to sway my opinion, but only asks that I choose based on ENOUGH facts, and not just a few facts sprinkled with emotion. He said that he probably will cease eating bacon because of the information I shared with him (bacon, while super yummy, isn't exactly good for us) but it's because the information was from reputable sources. He encourages me not to only view articles and information from PETA and its affiliates, but to find objective news sources that don't have ''an agenda.'' It's a learning experience, like everything else. 

Sometimes these messages are better received when coming from a friend IRL.

Yep. He has the luxury of tone. lol

[Syne]

I agree with Dawkins.  It’s ethically indefensible.

Some people can justify it by using an appeal to nature, but nature does not convey moral values.  We could use that argument to support almost any crime.  

Do you consider it ethical for a few to suffer so that many more survive? What about for many to suffer so they don't die?

IOW, is suffering worse than death?