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The morality behind veganism

#31
Syne Offline
There is always some percent of any industry, in any economic system, that will engage in unethical practices. Is it fair to condemn the whole industry for that percentage? What about putting honest, ethical people with families out of work? It's when the whole industry is painted with a broad brush that it becomes propaganda. That is the red flag that the data may be suspect.

Are all big industries just as suspect? What about the alcohol industry lobbying to make alcohol easier to access or to keep DUI punishment from being more harsh? This may lead to more DUI fatalities (not to mention domestic abuse, etc.). Would you give up alcohol on that basis alone?

Where is the research proving hormones and additives are harmful to people? You know, at the average consumption quantities....not pumped into a rat until it gets cancer. Where is the research that isolates these in meat/dairy from other correlate causes? As you posted earlier...are these "facts" you using to make decisions or just "findings"?

What evidence do you have that animals have any awareness of their life expectancy? Plenty of humans engage in behavior that precipitously shortens their own lives, without any physiological awareness of the harm they may be doing. So what makes you think that animals are somehow more prescient than a human who just hasn't consulted a doctor? Phrases like "drop dead" are only meant to play on your emotions, where the truth is that such animals are likely slaughtered before collapsing to a sudden, dramatic sounding death.

Broad generalities about whole industries, correlations presented as causative (or findings as fact), and intentionally emotional language are all red flags that the data is suspect.
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#32
Leigha Offline
It's not a small percentage. If it were, I wouldn't be changing my lifestyle. I'd encourage you to put your personal bias aside (maybe you like bacon?) and research things on your own, with an objective mindset.

And the thread is solely about the morality behind veganism and the practices behind the factory dairy/meat industries, so please don't derail the topic.
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#33
Syne Offline
Who said it was a small percentage? You keep making these strawman arguments...which suggests you are insecure in your position. If your "facts" were so strong, you wouldn't feel the need to argue points I never made (basically arguing yourself). And even though I've only been questioning the veracity of the facts you're using to make your case...somehow you think I'm derailing the topic? If you want to discuss morality, you cannot forbid discussion of what does or does not justify that moral stance. If you just don't what to debate your precious beliefs, then quit trying to debate them. I'm not denying anything that can be proven to actually happen, only whether your subjective definition of "abuse" is credible. So far you've failed to address any of the analogies I've made.

Humans would prefer strict confinement to perceived threats.
Do you deny that animals share similar behavior?

Humans do shorten their own lifespan with no immediate awareness.
Do you claim animals are more aware than humans?

The alcohol industry does lobby to effectively maintain/increase DUI.
Do you buy alcohol?

If you cannot or will not answer these questions (even just to yourself), you may need to examine your own motivations. Like I said before, if you just sympathize with animals and don't want to kill them for food, you don't need to support your conviction any further, and I have no reason to scrutinize it. But when you go making assumptions about what animals are aware of, your assumptions are subject to evidence.
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#34
Leigha Offline
I guess the confusion I have with your points, is that you seem to misunderstand my thread intent. Your replies seem combative, and I’m unsure as to why. Lol

The reason I’m sharing this info, is to bring awareness and to also, share what exactly changed MY mindset. You seem to argue your points as if we are discussing religion, and I’m the religious one trying to get you to convert to my religion or something . Lol So, because you feel that I’m trying to ‘’convert’’ people, you are opposed to the ‘’facts’’ that I’m presenting. These are facts that I’ve presented, and they work for me, and only me. There is a lot of public information out there for you to research in order to make your own informed decisions. Your adamant defense of the factory dairy/meat industry tells me that you don’t know much about it at all, because you haven’t provided anything to actually counter my information. You’re talking about the alcohol industry, etc as a distraction from the actual topic. I’m not trying to convert you, though, just sharing why my views have changed.

And I don’t judge anyone who is presented with facts and remains a dairy/meat consumer. It’s a personal choice, I’m just offering awareness for now.
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#35
scheherazade Offline
I have managed to distress a great number of vegans by pointing out that plants are omnivores. They happily ingest whatever nutrients are decomposed for them and that includes our own mortal remains, so much the better if we elect for cremation to hasten the process.

Residing in a northern territory with a strong first nations presence and a percentage of the population that still practices predominantly a traditional lifestyle of hunting, fishing and wild harvest, I observe the process to be respectful toward nature with consideration for future generations. The amount of available food limits the population of humans and other species.

The problem, as I see it, is that we humans are clever enough to manipulate the environment to suit our own purposes, therefore we can build dwellings in hitherto uninhabitable regions and we can design means of growing and/or importing the food we require. What is not adequately considered is the effect on future generations or even the long term health effects on ourselves from utilizing these means.

To date, we have been very successful in the increasing of our numbers while the numbers and variety of many other species dwindle or go extinct. Without being judgemental or applying any ethical considerations, it seems a very logical mathematical observation to suggest that the current systems are not sustainable and that there are likely to be some very sharp adjustments to come in the very near future.
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#36
Leigha Offline
(Oct 10, 2016 10:15 PM)scheherazade Wrote: I have managed to distress a great number of vegans by pointing out that plants are omnivores. They happily ingest whatever nutrients are decomposed for them and that includes our own mortal remains, so much the better if we elect for cremation to hasten the process.

Residing in a northern territory with a strong first nations presence and a percentage of the population that still practices predominantly a traditional lifestyle of hunting, fishing and wild harvest, I observe the process to be respectful toward nature with consideration for future generations. The amount of available food limits the population of humans and other species.

The problem, as I see it, is that we humans are clever enough to manipulate the environment to suit our own purposes, therefore we can build dwellings in hitherto uninhabitable regions and we can design means of growing and/or importing the food we require. What is not adequately considered is the effect on future generations or even the long term health effects on ourselves from utilizing these means.

To date, we have been very successful in the increasing of our numbers while the numbers and variety of many other species dwindle or go extinct. Without being judgemental or applying any ethical considerations, it seems a very logical mathematical observation to suggest that the current systems are not sustainable and that there are likely to be some very sharp adjustments to come in the very near future.

Well said, agree!
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#37
Syne Offline
(Oct 10, 2016 08:20 PM)Leigha Wrote: I guess the confusion I have with your points, is that you seem to misunderstand my thread intent. Your replies seem combative, and I’m unsure as to why. Lol

The reason I’m sharing this info, is to bring awareness and to also, share what exactly changed MY mindset. You seem to argue your points as if we are discussing religion, and I’m the religious one trying to get you to convert to my religion or something . Lol So, because you feel that I’m trying to ‘’convert’’ people, you are opposed to the ‘’facts’’ that I’m presenting. These are facts that I’ve presented, and they work for me, and only me. There is a lot of public information out there for you to research in order to make your own informed decisions. Your adamant defense of the factory dairy/meat industry tells me that you don’t know much about it at all, because you haven’t provided anything to actually counter my information. You’re talking about the alcohol industry, etc as a distraction from the actual topic. I’m not trying to convert you, though, just sharing why my views have changed.

And I don’t judge anyone who is presented with facts and remains a dairy/meat consumer. It’s a personal choice, I’m just offering awareness for now.

Yes, you do seem confused. I don't think you're trying to convert anyone at all. I know it may be a novel idea, but people can debate facts solely on the merit of their veracity. I have absolutely no doubt that the industry has many practices that many people view as horrific, and even some that actually are. You act as if I've refuted that, even though all I've questioned is whether particular things can be objectively shown to be abusive (sans anthropomorphic assumptions). The intimation of religion seems like a projection of the nature of your own conviction...and subsequent trouble facing objective facts.

I've tried, apparently in vain, to ask you questions that might help us understand each other. But your steadfast avoidance leads me to believe that you may be afraid to answer them, for fear of what they may say about your newly found convictions. I'm not defending any industry (and really don't feel like I have a horse in that race), but I am generally annoyed by propaganda, which shares many traits with the "facts" you have presented.

Are these also a distraction?

Humans would prefer strict confinement to perceived threats.
Do you deny that animals share similar behavior?

Humans do shorten their own lifespan with no immediate awareness.
Do you claim animals are more aware than humans?

Or are you just avoiding inconvenient facts because they do not comport with your new found beliefs?
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#38
Leigha Offline
(Oct 11, 2016 03:39 AM)Syne Wrote: Yes, you do seem confused.
Only in that you misunderstand the point of the thread. 

Quote:I don't think you're trying to convert anyone at all. I know it may be a novel idea, but people can debate facts solely on the merit of their veracity. I have absolutely no doubt that the industry has many practices that many people view as horrific, and even some that actually are. You act as if I've refuted that, even though all I've questioned is whether particular things can be objectively shown to be abusive (sans anthropomorphic assumptions). The intimation of religion seems like a projection of the nature of your own conviction...and subsequent trouble facing objective facts.
I've presented you with facts. You choose to see them as ''findings,'' but they're facts. 

Quote:I've tried, apparently in vain, to ask you questions that might help us understand each other.
You're not trying to ''understand'' my views. lol 

Quote:But your steadfast avoidance leads me to believe that you may be afraid to answer them, for fear of what they may say about your newly found convictions.
I don't have convictions, I'm offering information as to why I'd like to change my lifestyle, and this thread was to bring about awareness. The only options available aren't to be carnivorous or vegan. I've stated that as much in the thread.  


Quote:Humans would prefer strict confinement to perceived threats.
Do you deny that animals share similar behavior?
This is your perception as to why factory farms are placing livestock in confined spaces for long periods of time. The only ''threat'' against these animals are the humans in these factories, go figure. 

Quote:Humans do shorten their own lifespan with no immediate awareness.
Not true in all cases. Are you saying that a chronic smoker is totally unaware of the health risks involved with his habit, and that it most likely will shorten his lifespan?

Quote:Do you claim animals are more aware than humans?
Animals are aware of pain, and they process fear. They react to fear and pain in a number of ways. Humans can observe these reactions, and to not care about those reactions, is cruel. 

Quote:Or are you just avoiding inconvenient facts because they do not comport with your new found beliefs?
Those aren't facts, those are your opinions. I have yet to see you post anything that counters the unethical dairy factory practices. I'm talking about factory dairy/cattle farms, not humane farms, where these practices aren't going on.
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#39
Syne Offline
Ignoring all the hyperbole...

(Oct 11, 2016 04:09 AM)Leigha Wrote:
(Oct 11, 2016 03:39 AM)Syne Wrote: Humans would prefer strict confinement to perceived threats.
Do you deny that animals share similar behavior?
This is your perception as to why factory farms are placing livestock in confined spaces for long periods of time. The only ''threat'' against these animals are the humans in these factories, go figure. 

Then why do sows, in a European study, with free access to gestating pens freely opt to spend 90% of their time in one? Are humans being threatening in the communal area? Or is this just a fact that you find inconvenient?

Quote:
Quote:Humans do shorten their own lifespan with no immediate awareness.
Not true in all cases. Are you saying that a chronic smoker is totally unaware of the health risks involved with his habit, and that it most likely will shorten his lifespan?

Were people naturally aware of the health risks of smoking before they were known by the medical profession? No, they had no clue. Again, you seem to be assuming more awareness in animals than humans naturally possess.

Quote:
Quote:Do you claim animals are more aware than humans?
Animals are aware of pain, and they process fear. They react to fear and pain in a number of ways. Humans can observe these reactions, and to not care about those reactions, is cruel. 

Not all cases of lifespan shortening treatment cause any pain or fear. And before you try to dismiss that argument, realize that it's the same kind you just tried to make (i.e. "Not true in all cases.").
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