The morality behind veganism

[Syne]

Are human prisons inhumane?

Pig farm confinement is a bit different than the confinement in prisons, although some prisons are definitely inhumane. Humans get to leave their cell, in most cases depending on their crimes, exercise, and socialize outside of their cells - but the pigs never leave their confined cell that doesn't let them even turn around. It's that cramped. Do your research. They're called gestation crates, and they're slowly being outlawed but not fast enough.

Research results are mixed. For example, in Europe sows allowed free access to maternity pens stayed in them more than 90% of the time...even returning to the same one. Many animals do like small spaces where they feel secure, and likely feel more vulnerable while gestating. No doubt, many human prisoners would choose to stay in their cell if no threat could gain access to them there.

You might look to temper your unbridled anthropomorphic sympathies with actual data, instead of documentaries intended to play on your emotions.

[stryder]

Almond milk actually offers more calcium than cow milk, and tastes really good. Less calories, as well. Cow milk really isn't good for us, in general.

Becoming a vegan, it is going to be challenging, but I have vegan friends who will help me with nutritious recipes. That's cool stryder, that you've adopted this lifestyle for the past two years.   Do you grow any of your own vegetables?

Currently I don't grow any of my own vegetables since the property I reside in doesn't have any land/garden, however I did enquire about allotments locally (similar to a community garden I guess, In the UK that's a local governmentally run project to make available small affordable segments of land for people to grow fresh fruit/vegetables.)

[stryder]

On a slightly different topic, again some time back their was an article on rainforest deforestation being caused by the increase in Soya crops. (Soya farms were being cultivated not to feed the sudden influx of vegetarian/vegans but to actually supplement cow feed, so as to create more milk and beef.) Soya can be an extremely damaging crop since it utilises a lot of water which removes pretty much all nutrients from the soil, so it can effect what can be grown there in the future, or makes the crops extremely reliant on artificial fertilizers.

There is of course the point that thanks to advancements in hydroponics that such crops can now be pretty much grown anywhere (not like a bath-tab for some shady Chinese restaurant, which believe it or not was an anecdote from some years back that a plumber mentioned in regards to one of their visits.)

[Zinjanthropos]

Remember the Minnesota(?) dentist who shot dead that lion in Africa after guides lured him out from a protected area? There were Vegans of the world saying that was a good thing, one less predator equals less suffering for prey animals according to Vegan math. Morally wrong to lure the big cat out into the open to be shot? Most people might say so. Morally wrong to have saved the lives of potential prey animals? Tough one. Morally wrong to mess with nature's balances? I think so but we do it all the time.

[Leigha]

Almond milk actually offers more calcium than cow milk, and tastes really good. Less calories, as well. Cow milk really isn't good for us, in general.

Becoming a vegan, it is going to be challenging, but I have vegan friends who will help me with nutritious recipes. That's cool stryder, that you've adopted this lifestyle for the past two years.   Do you grow any of your own vegetables?

Currently I don't grow any of my own vegetables since the property I reside in doesn't have any land/garden, however I did enquire about allotments locally (similar to a community garden I guess, In the UK that's a local governmentally run project to make available small affordable segments of land for people to grow fresh fruit/vegetables.)

Those community style gardens are such a great concept. I know a few people who live in cities, and belong to those and it offers them the best of both worlds. The vegetable farming market is also wrought with corruption and greed in order to mass produce, but organic is better in terms of the end result.

On a slightly different topic, again some time back their was an article on rainforest deforestation being caused by the increase in Soya crops.  (Soya farms were being cultivated not to feed the sudden influx of vegetarian/vegans but to actually supplement cow feed, so as to create more milk and beef.) Soya can be an extremely damaging crop since it utilises a lot of water which removes pretty much all nutrients from the soil, so it can effect what can be grown there in the future, or makes the crops extremely reliant on artificial fertilizers.

There is of course the point that thanks to advancements in hydroponics that such crops can now be pretty much grown anywhere (not like a bath-tab for some shady Chinese restaurant, which believe it or not was an anecdote from some years back that a plumber mentioned in regards to one of their visits.)

It seems like there is always an imbalance somewhere along the line.   For example, almond milk. 80% of almonds are harvested in California, and with the water shortage, it has become an environmental concern. Granted, cow's milk isn't exactly eco-friendly, either, but dairy farms are spread across the country. 

Remember the Minnesota(?) dentist who shot dead that lion in Africa after guides lured him out from a protected area? There were Vegans of the world saying that was a good thing, one less predator equals less suffering for prey animals according to Vegan math. Morally wrong to lure the big cat out into the open to be shot? Most people might say so. Morally wrong to have saved the lives of potential prey animals? Tough one. Morally wrong to mess with nature's balances? I think so but we do it all the time.

I'd say it was immoral to lure the lion out and shoot it. But morality is subjective, of course.

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And then there's this: http://www.futurefood.org/in-vitro-meat/index_en.php

''Tissue engineering technology'' is what's on the horizon.

[Leigha]

This is a great article that came out last year, about how the industrial dairy industry is 'fighting back' against companies that are offering alternatives to milk/dairy products.

http://www.care2.com/causes/dairy-indust...paign.html

[Syne]

I don't drink milk...never liked the taste. But that article is propaganda. There is no "inherent cruelty" in the dairy industry. "Inherent" mean necessary and permanent. We know that local farmers product dairy without any cruelty whatsoever, so cruelty cannot be inherent. And "Milk depletes the calcium from your bones"? This seems to be a coincidental correlation with no study showing causation. It's only based on higher incidents of osteoporosis and milk consumption, but does not rule out other known factors that are equally, or better, correlated.

But I'm sure info that just reinforces your beliefs is all you're really looking for. That's understandable. It's a big decision and takes some work and research to pull off in a healthy manor. May need to reinforcement to buoy your resolve.

[Leigha]

I don't think that debating you makes sense, because you are convinced of what you are convinced of, yet you condemn others for being convinced of what they're convinced of. lol #irony

[Syne]

Again, you don't seem to read what I write. I just said, "That's understandable. It's a big decision and takes some work and research to pull off in a healthy manor." I'm not condemning your choice or action here. It is very commendable to follow your principles, especially when it may be inconvenient. Whether that means researching meat/dairy sources or forgoing them altogether, you are right to follow your personal convictions.

I am questioning the veracity of the supporting data. If you simply don't want to kill animals for food, then you need no justifying facts at all. But...if you want to use facts to justify your choice, facts are always open to scrutiny. Your choice doesn't hurt anyone (yourself included, if done right), so no one has any grounds to really criticize it. But studies and data are, by their nature, only as good as they can weather criticism.

[Leigha]

I thought you were being sarcastic. lol Since you are being sincere with your comment, thank you.

Having said that, I believe that the facts are what is driving my choice. I'm not a ''confirmation bias'' kind of person, in general. I tend to make decisions based on facts, and perhaps it's hard to accept that such large industries supporting our food system could be wrought with unethical business practices. It is difficult to comprehend that the government is putting its stamp of approval on meats and dairy products that are often pumped with growth hormones and harmful additives. But, industrial factory farmers are wealthy lobbyists. Sounds like a conflict of interest to me.

I wouldn't be moved to change, if it were just a few farms noted as employing unethical animal treatment, but when you read that most of the dairy farms use artificial insemination to keep cows pregnant and lactating until they drop dead, much sooner than their overall life expectancy, you start exploring things a bit further. It is very disturbing to me that I've been ignorant to all of this. Almost ashamed, but now that I know...I can't pretend like I don't know. Not sure how deep I'll get into veganism, but I can say that at least I understand the morality behind it.