Brian Greene and Richard Dawkins Discuss God

[Syne]

You responded to 2 sentences out of 8 of my own. Deflecting about an LLM quote is disingenuous.
But I get it. You don't actually want to engage with anything difficult or challenging. Like the philosophical history of the free will defense.
You just want to cherry-pick.

That's why I said "meh." You obviously can't be bothered to think outside your own preconceived box. That's okay. You can stay there.

[Magical Realist]

When you think up something challenging on your own, let me know. I've got better things to do while you let LLM's do your thinking for you.

[Syne]

Like I said, you can stay there.
Otherwise, literacy is amazing!

[Magical Realist]

The absurdity of God pretending to not exist to preserve our free will is demonstrated in this:

Suppose a man receives a letter encouraging him to reconcile with his long absent father. But the letter says to respect his free choice it is not going to tell him if his father is still alive or not. The choice of reconciling is in fact totally sabotaged by withholding from him that vital piece of information. Same with God. How can one choose for or against someone you don't even know exists?

[Ostronomos]

In this case, there are no contradictory facts (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, because that is an argument from ignorance) whereby a rational choice is definitively determined.

Nope..a God concealing his existence from humans is precisely contradictory to the reality and equates to deception. And making a choice based on deception cannot be a free choice. God biases that choice by simulating his nonexistence, which removes free choice and traps humans in a delusion of him not existing. And there is no virtue in believing something without evidence. It is belief without justification and which therefore cannot qualify as knowledge.

Again, atheism is a delusion. I assume your delusion stems from the fact that God exists outside of time and space rather than simply being absent, whereby you fail to distinguish the two. God does not conceal His existence. Rather, He exists in another dimension inaccessible without a 6th sense. Here is something I wrote in response to someone who was temporarily possessed by the Devil back in 2008:

draqon said:
too many times is God absent

In actuality he is nowhere absent. S is distributed over S. This is how the self is S, and since nowhere is S absent, He must be in me. And He is therefore "I" as spirit and non-"I", or "God" and non-"God" merged to become the one that distributes over the one. Reality being defined according to God. As I already explained, evil does not exist, it is the absence of God in man's heart, God is love, consciousness, and good, therefore a flicker of that candle in the dark can illuminate and destroy what is false/concept/ false concept/object/actual lies and/or misunderstandings of reality. And even in this misunderstanding, can I be aware now of that. Forgive my misunderstanding, but you are not "God" if you are evil, as God is the light in your darkness that illuminates you and reveals himself that is one self. I am that light which shines in darkness. I am the love that fills the coldest heart. I am the goodness that transcends all "evil:' I am the one who is not separate from everything and everyone.

Who are you?

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Cortex_Colossus

Banned

Banned

• Oct 19, 2007
  

• 
  
• #6
  

hrug: <--"I don't know nothing."

Roman said:
Love is pretty cool. Love for one God. Love for that One that is nowhere absent in reality, that inheres in matter. The 6th sense is found when one opens one's heart to Humility, Reverence, inspiration, deep purpose and Joy (see http://www.philosophy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=40).

draqon

Banned

Banned

• Oct 19, 2007
  

• 
  
• #7
  

Cortex_Colossus said:
Who are you?

and who are you?

Discover more
Subscribing To Social Science Journals
science
Religious
History

Looney

Whaaaaat?

Registered Senior Member

• Oct 19, 2007
  

• 
  
• #8
  

Urban legend. Isn't it?

John99

Banned

Banned

• Oct 19, 2007
  

• 
  
• #9
  

Cortex_Colossus said:
quote:
A university professor challenged his class: "Did God
create everything?" A student replied, "Yes." The professor
continued: "If God created everything, then He created evil
too. And since our works define who we are, then God is
evil." The class became silent. Suddenly another student
raised his hand and asked, "Professor, does darkness
exist?" The professor responded, "Yes." The student
replied, "No, sir, darkness does not exist. Darkness is
just the absence of light. Light, we can study, but not
darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break the
white light into many colors and study the various
wavelengths of each color. But you cannot measure darkness.
A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness
and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain
space is? You measure the amount of light present. Darkness
is a term used by man to describe what happens when there
is no light present." Then the young man asked, "Sir, does
evil exist?" Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of
course." To this the student replied, "No, evil does not
exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. It
is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness, a
word that man has created to describe the absence of light.
God did not create evil. It is the result of what happens
when man does not have God's love present in his heart.
Evil is like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or
the darkness that comes when there is no light." The
professor sat down. The young man's name was Albert
Einstein.

Click to expand...

That was nice htough some things i would say are wrong. Since I am not certain about the second part i will respond primarily to the first part.
I can almost agree with this, i at least want to believe it:

It is the result of what happens
when man does not have God's love present in his heart.

That may or may not be true. Factoring in posession, serial killers and a few other circumstances. Posession is somehting that just may have occured allbeit a few rare circumstances. Specifically once in New Jersey, once in Connecticut, once in Germany.

every action has an equal and opposite reaction

Good - EVIL, if we have good (positive) well would would we even have htis without evil(negative)? How would we differentiate, how would we recognise this? HOW HOW HOW?
That is even assuming if this is correct,

every action has an equal and opposite reaction

which TBH i am not even 100% sure about...but that is a seperate issue.
Nevertheless good information.

Last edited: Oct 19, 2007

Donnal

Registered Member

• Nov 6, 2007
  

• 
  
• #10
  

i like mr einstein hes so dam smart

Non-Logical-Idea-Guy

Fat people can't smile.

Registered Senior Member

• Nov 7, 2007
  

• 
  
• #11
  

yeah is he a genius or something?

[Image: 15214.jpg?1415844109]

Enmos

Valued Senior Member

• Nov 7, 2007
  

• 
  
• #12
  

Hmm darkness seems to be the standard though.. so it must exist.

Bradley364

DIG HARD!

Registered Senior Member

• Nov 7, 2007
  

• 
  
• #13
  

Evil is a interchangeable idea, people can call one man's actions evil, but the same man can call it necessary. Evil is a word that is used to describe things that are deemed unacceptable in cultures. No absence of an invisible man needed. Just opinion.

greenberg

until the end of the world

Registered Senior Member

• Nov 7, 2007
  

• 
  
• #14
  

Cortex_Colossus said:
quote:
A university professor challenged his class: "Did God
create everything?" A student replied, "Yes." The professor
continued: "If God created everything, then He created evil
too. And since our works define who we are, then God is
evil." The class became silent. Suddenly another student
raised his hand and asked, "Professor, does darkness
exist?" The professor responded, "Yes." The student
replied, "No, sir, darkness does not exist. Darkness is
just the absence of light. Light, we can study, but not
darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break the
white light into many colors and study the various
wavelengths of each color. But you cannot measure darkness.
A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness
and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain
space is? You measure the amount of light present. Darkness
is a term used by man to describe what happens when there
is no light present." Then the young man asked, "Sir, does
evil exist?" Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of
course." To this the student replied, "No, evil does not
exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. It
is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness, a
word that man has created to describe the absence of light.
God did not create evil. It is the result of what happens
when man does not have God's love present in his heart.
Evil is like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or
the darkness that comes when there is no light." The
professor sat down. The young man's name was Albert
Einstein.

Click to expand...

Interesting. So within existence, there are holes made of non-existence?
And God's Creation is not ubiqutous?

shichimenshyo

Caught in the machine

Registered Senior Member

• Nov 7, 2007
  

• 
  
• [url=https://www.sciforums.com/threads/what-is-evil.72616/post-1619083]#15
  

your evil


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[Syne]

The absurdity of God pretending to not exist to preserve our free will is demonstrated in this:

Suppose a man receives a letter encouraging him to reconcile with his long absent father. But the letter says to respect his free choice it is not going to tell him if his father is still alive or not. The choice of reconciling is in fact totally sabotaged by withholding from him that vital piece of information. Same with God. How can one choose for or against someone you don't even know exists?

Not pretending anything, just not a physical being that would natively manifest in our perceivable reality.

Strawman analogy.
First, nothing is sabotaged simply by lacking the current status of the father. The man can still seek out his father and find out for himself.
Second, there are no moral/eternal consequences of disobeying (not reconciling with) his biological father. So that lack of information has no impact on his free will... by design, as such strawmen are wont to do.

Again, since the vast majority of the world has been aware of God throughout history, you've been told, whether you freely choose to believe or not.

[Ostronomos]

To Magical Realist,

I wrote this 5 years ago:

The higher level physics of Quantum entanglement is required to explain this and other supernatural phenomenon.

Each universe is self-contained because it contains only one thing, namely consciousness or itself which exists as a whole and matter which appears in parts. Thus we are confronted with the inexorable set of all sets paradox in the reality of all universes. From the materialist perspective, each universe appears singular and isolated from the others. When a two-universe wave function which behaves like a two-electron wavefunction is in superposition, the knowledge of the two beings in each of the two different universes can be instantaneously communicated across time and space with each other, such as a demon from a demonic realm and yourself as the source of this occurrence. Put simply, there exists an element of truth to the statement that supernatural beings and human beings (or their minds) can be quantum entangled with each other and influence each other's behavior intelligently without even being in each other's presence. That is to say, a single individual may act as a source of supernatural phenomenon the likes of which are explained by quantum interference between universes. This is only possible during a higher state of consciousness or a kind of hyper-awareness that enables absolute knowledge of God and the supernatural. The wavefunction between two multi-particle systems may constructively interfere leading to superposition, which is unlike anything the rest of you are familiar with.

Consciousness is one so a unified field or universal consciousness can be generated and is completely allowed by the quantum potential of the de Broglie-Bohm interpretation, which allows the entirety of the universe to be quantum entangled with itself and others through consciousness. Other than this your familiar surroundings would appear the same as always. In essence, the wavefunction is a key component in supernatural phenomenon which is unsurprisingly foreign territory to most of you.

The natural world can become connected or disconnected from the supernatural dimension which exists at 90 degrees or orthonomally to it in hyperspace. Consciousness is one's ticket to experiencing this which can be entered through dreams (which can not only predict phenomenon in the waking world while in the dimension of the subconscious, but the content of those dreams can be quantum entangled with the world that divides your awareness), resulting in the reflexive self-processing of reality and mind (but only under these strict conditions).

Thank you.

[Magical Realist]

First, nothing is sabotaged simply by lacking the current status of the father. The man can still seek out his father and find out for himself.

His ability to reconcile is immediately sabotaged due to the fact that he doesn't know if his father is alive or not. You don't prepare to reconcile/reject someone until you actually know they exist.

Second, there are no moral/eternal consequences of disobeying (not reconciling with) his biological father.

Straw man...Without knowing God exists, nobody can be held morally accountable for not following God. There is no rejection involved where there is no solid evidence for his existence.

Again, since the vast majority of the world has been aware of God throughout history, you've been told, whether you freely choose to believe or not.

The vast majority of the world has also believed the sun revolved around the earth. When we had evidence otherwise, all that changed. The same is true for all the thousands of gods believed in. When the evidence comes in that even just one of them exists, we will finally know. But not until then.

[Syne]

First, nothing is sabotaged simply by lacking the current status of the father. The man can still seek out his father and find out for himself.

His ability to reconcile is immediately sabotaged due to the fact that he doesn't know if his father is alive or not. You don't prepare to reconcile/reject someone until you actually know they exist.

No, your intend to reconcile or not is not dependent upon you knowing their current status. Well, unless you see reconciliation as pure transactional, where you're only willing to do it if they are. But then, you'd need to see or talk to them before you'd be able to judge their own willingness to reconcile. So either way, you have to go find out for yourself.

But this seems like a telling analogy to your view on God. You see it as purely transactional, which may be how you approach all relationships... possibly explaining the lack thereof.

Second, there are no moral/eternal consequences of disobeying (not reconciling with) his biological father.

Straw man...Without knowing God exists, nobody can be held morally accountable for not following God. There is no rejection involved where there is no solid evidence for his existence.

Whether you know (for sure)/believe or not has nothing to do with moral accountability... unless you just presume God doesn't exist without any positive evidence to that end. There's no rejection possible if you know for certain. Again, you can't reject the existence of the chair you sit in, unless you're delusional. The only freedom to choose comes from some degree of doubt. It's like choosing between life and certain death. Unless you are suicidal/delusional, there's only one choice. It's coercive, not free.

Again, since the vast majority of the world has been aware of God throughout history, you've been told, whether you freely choose to believe or not.

The vast majority of the world has also believed the sun revolved around the earth. When we had evidence otherwise, all that changed. The same is true for all the thousands of gods believed in. When the evidence comes in that even just one of them exists, we will finally know. But not until then.

Your deflecting from the fact that you do know of God, whether directly form others or the culture at large. Again, if you knew for certain, it wouldn't be a choice at all.

[Magical Realist]

No, your intend to reconcile or not is not dependent upon you knowing their current status. Well, unless you see reconciliation as pure transactional, where you're only willing to do it if they are.

Yes it is. And the choice to either reconcile in the future or reject the father can only be sensibly made based on knowing if the father is still alive. There is simply no reason to plan that if we don't know if the father is alive. And no free choice is preserved by keeping you in ignorance of this fact.

But this seems like a telling analogy to your view on God. You see it as purely transactional, which may be how you approach all relationships... possibly explaining the lack thereof.

Yes..all chosen relationships with any beings have to be based on the knowledge that they exist as well as the experience of them as real persons. Lacking that there is no basis for any relationship. God pretending he doesn't exist denies humans the ability to choose to have a relationship with him or not. Personally I would opt not to. It is inherently repugnant to me to worship any being or to obey them as my master and Lord. Hence him revealing himself to exist would enable my free choice on the matter.

Whether you know (for sure)/believe or not has nothing to do with moral accountability... unless you just presume God doesn't exist without any positive evidence to that end. There's no rejection possible if you know for certain.

Yes it does. You cannot be held responsible for not having a relationship with someone you don't know exists. And yes rejection is absolutely possible as I explained the mere existence of a God would in no way force me to embrace him. Even Christians believe sinners will continue to reject Christ after he reveals his existence to them. It's the only way they can be held morally accountable for not following him. The free choice is only enabled by the knowledge that God exists, not by the ignorance of his existence.

Again, you can't reject the existence of the chair you sit in, unless you're delusional.

I can only reject the chair as something I must worship and serve by being shown it exists. In the same way there is no way for me to make the choice to follow God's will or reject it other than being shown for certain that he exists. Once again, freewill is based on knowledge, not on ignorance and iffy faith.