EPR experiment and non-locality

#1
confused2 Offline
I've hijacked this video a bit .. the whole thing is good but my particular interest is the EPR and 'proof' of non-locality

5:38 Bohr wasn't the one who wrote the mathematical rules of quantum mechanics. Instead, he told everyone what they meant. While others were confused by the theory Bohr offered answers, his philosophy became known as the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. My general understanding of the Copenhagen interpretation is you have the wave function, it describes everything that you can know about a particle or a system, and it evolves according to the Schrödinger equation. And at some point you're gonna make a measurement and at that point the wave function collapses. - I think that one bit of that that you said was like the wave function is all you can know about the particle, and I think that was like a pretty important point to Bohr. As Bohr would put it. 'It's wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how nature is.' The job of physics is just to predict measurements in the lab, which quantum mechanics does incredibly well as for what the electron is doing when you're not looking well to Bohr, that question didn't even make sense to ask.
6:36
The wave function tells you everything physics can or should tell you. Einstein couldn't stand the Copenhagen interpretation In a letter to his ally Schrodinger, he called it a tranquilizing philosophy or religion. Einstein felt his thought experiment exposed a critical weakness in the Copenhagen interpretation. He'd shown that the way the wave function collapses is non-local, and so he reasoned maybe the wave function is the problem. Maybe it's not the best way to describe the electron.

9:16
So in 1935, he [Einstein] made one last attempt to convince the community that there was a contradiction between quantum mechanics and relativity. With the help of two younger colleagues, Boris Podolsky and Nathan Rosen, he formulated another even more striking thought experiment that shows the non-locality of quantum mechanics. This paper is now known as the EPR paper after its authors. Here is a simplified version of their thought experiment. Imagine a single high energy photon suddenly becomes two particles. One of them is an electron and to conserve total charge. The other is a positron since one is negative and the other is positive, they cancel out. But both electrons and positrons have a property called spin and like electric charge, this also needs to be conserved. If the light started out with zero spin, well then the two particles together must have zero total spin as well. For example, if the direction of the electron spin is this, the positron has to have spin in the opposite direction so that they perfectly cancel out. But the electron spin could have been this instead or this. All of these possibilities are valid. So the rules of quantum mechanics say that the electron does all of these possible things at once until it's measured. It's not just that we don't know what the spin is, the electron really is doing everything. The only restriction is whatever the electron is doing. The positron must do the exact opposite. This also means that when the electron is measured and its state is determined, so is the positrons. This is what we mean by entanglement. The two particles states depend on each other. But how do we measure the particles and force them to do one thing? Well for that we use the Stern-Gerlach machine. It's essentially a strangely shaped magnet and it's how we measure spin. The orientation of the magnets determines what axis you're measuring the spin in. For example, if the machine is like this and we shoot in a particle with spin in the positive Z direction, it will certainly go to this spot we'll call plus. If instead a particle has negative Z spin, it will certainly go down to minus. So this Stern-Gerlach machine measures spin in the Z axis. So what happens when we put in one of our entangled particles? When the electron goes into this machine, it either goes to plus or to minus. With 50/50 probability, let's say our electron goes to plus. Well, this means it went from being in an indeterminate state to positive Z spin. But what about the positron? Well, the only way to conserve spin is if it's now in the negative Z spin state. When it's measured, there is a 100% chance it's minus. It has to be that way to conserve spin. But the authors of the paper realized there's something very odd about this result. - To see what's wrong with this let's imagine that the electron and the positron carry these envelopes with them. These envelopes represent the state of the two particles. Until they're measured, both of the particles are in a superposition of being plus and minus at the same time. So both options are in the envelope, but now let's move the positron to someone who's far far away. In this analogy, opening the envelope is like measuring the spin of the electron, but that causes the wave function of the electron to collapse to just one possibility. In this case, it's plus, but what happens to the other envelope far away? Well, it needs to instantly collapse to minus because otherwise when the experimenter opens their envelope, they have a chance of seeing plus, which would violate the conservation of spin.But if it needs to collapse instantly when the electron is measured, then how does it know what to collapse to? It must receive intel from the far away electron, but that message has to travel much faster than the speed of light to get to the positron in time.
If you're grabbed by the story so .. I'd pick up the vid at
https://youtu.be/NIk_0AW5hFU?t=760

The Youtube is 'There Is Something Faster Than Light' with Looking Glass Darkly as star and is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIk_0AW5hFU
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#2
Magical Realist Offline
I coincidentally found this on my FB news feed just now. Which view of waveform collapse to you subscribe to?

"At the heart of quantum mechanics sits a problem that has puzzled the greatest physicists alive for over a century. When a quantum system is observed it snaps from a superposition of all possible states into one definite outcome. But quantum mechanics itself provides no explanation for why or how this happens.

The measurement problem was identified almost as soon as quantum mechanics was formulated in the 1920s. The Schrödinger equation perfectly describes how a quantum system evolves smoothly and continuously over time while unobserved. But when a measurement occurs the wave function collapses instantly and discontinuously to a single value. This collapse is not described by any equation. It simply happens and physics has no mechanism to explain it.

Different interpretations of quantum mechanics handle this differently. The Copenhagen interpretation — the most widely taught — simply says the wave function collapse is a fundamental primitive and stops asking why. Many Worlds says collapse never happens and all outcomes occur in branching parallel universes. Objective collapse theories add new physical mechanisms to cause collapse spontaneously. Relational quantum mechanics says quantum states only exist relative to observers. QBism says wave functions represent an agent's beliefs rather than physical reality.

Every interpretation makes identical experimental predictions. After one hundred years of debate no experiment has distinguished between them. Physicists can calculate quantum mechanics with extraordinary precision while fundamentally disagreeing about what it means."
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#3
confused2 Offline
MR Wrote:Which view of waveform collapse to you subscribe to?
Personally I think it IS the job of physics to examine and explain what is going on under the bonnet of reality. I don't have any interpretation or explanation of quantum mechanics (how photons and 'particles' do what they do) - it's just impossible. At least the Copenhagen interpretation doesn't attempt to make any sense of it so I go with that.
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#4
Magical Realist Offline
My FB news feed is daily flooded with articles about the latest greatest findings in quantum physics, from photons able to form into geometrical shapes to time having 3 directions. I check now to see if they are legit by googling them. Evidently the algorithm believes I'm really obsessed with this. Not really. I'm kind of numb to all these metaphysical claims for quantum physics. I already believe that reality bifurcates into the physical world and the mind, and they obviously are interacting all the time. We are just so used to it we don't notice it. As you wittily pointed out, there IS a lot more to light than meets the eye. I hope to live til the day major new discoveries are made about the nature of this mysterious reality we all live in.
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#5
C C Offline
John Wheeler tried to reduce space (extension and shape) down to a power structure of rules for connectivity. At the secondary level of this nomological hierarchy there were principles that required a relationship between two different elemental processors to have to propagate through an intervening line or network of such multiple information agents (consequently producing distance and time intervals). But at the primary level the instructions were lax and allowed direct (immediate) contact between any or all fundamental operators slash elemental entities. This was the pursuit of a pregeometry model.

Pregeometry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregeometry_(physics)
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#6
confused2 Offline
^^^ KInd of like having a pond in the garden .. you can't see below the surface. All the evidence shows that the physics of what happens below the surface of the pond is wildly different from what happens above the surface. It is surely the business of physicists to understand what goes on below the surface - because it's there - that's reason enough.
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