Article Rise & fall of journals + Is male/female divide a social construct? (Richard Dawkins)

[C C]

I think the hatred for "transracial" but support for "transgender" stems from transracial claims being very similar to the minstrel shows people used to put on to make fun of black people. So someone claiming a transracial identity automatically drags up those images, whereas transgender has no such history. (Well, men used to dress up as women for comedic effect, but it isn't seen as egregious as doing so for black people.) But it has been done - there was a black girl (Sarah Rector) who was declared legally white because people at the time could not imagine a black person having so much money.

That being said, I think the hand flailing about "trans women are women" is misunderstanding the point of the saying. Trans women are women is supposed to mean they're a type of woman, not that they're a cis biological woman (and their biology is made clear with the "trans" prefix). Like how a blue wire and a red wire are both wires, even though they have differences, and you probably would only cut one but not the other to diffuse a contraption. And we have "female" to describe a biological woman as well. A woman (cis or trans) could be defined as anybody who identifies with the sex characteristics or social behavior (since Dawkins did identify a host of behaviors associated with having large isogametes) associated with being female.

Your opinions are welcome, Raikuo. Glad you joined the forum.

[Syne]

I expose my genitalia every time I use a public restroom or a locker room. Should I be arrested too? Should we post genitalia inspectors at the entrance of female locker rooms and public restrooms to weed out all these perverted transgender women?

I don't doubt that intentionally expose your genitals to others in public restrooms.
The rest of us don't expose anything, because there's dividers and cubicles.

A male talking about being in men's locker rooms is irrelevant.

[Magical Realist]

I don't doubt that intentionally expose your genitals to others in public restrooms.
The rest of us don't expose anything, because there's dividers and cubicles.

As long as your genitals are exposed to open air they are exposed. That's the inevitable logistics of going to the restroom or showering in a locker room. lol

[Syne]

I don't doubt that intentionally expose your genitals to others in public restrooms.
The rest of us don't expose anything, because there's dividers and cubicles.

As long as your genitals are exposed to open air they are exposed. That's the inevitable logistics of going to the restroom or showering in a locker room. lol

Public exposure laws, often referred to as indecent exposure laws, prohibit the intentional exposure of one's genitals or other private parts in public, or in a place where others are likely to see them, with the intent to cause alarm or affront. - Google AI

Quit playing word games in a lame attempt to support your nonsense.


Or... do you really not understand what exposure means in this context?
I'd certainly believe it if you don't. Your ignorance seems to know no bounds.

[Magical Realist]

Public exposure laws, often referred to as indecent exposure laws, prohibit the intentional exposure of one's genitals or other private parts in public, or in a place where others are likely to see them, with the intent to cause alarm or affront.

Great! Then those alleged cases of transwomen exposing their genitals to others have no basis for being believed to be done intentionally to "cause alarm or affront". Tks for confirming that.

[Syne]

Not if it were male genitals in a men's locker room... as you tried to straw man.
But a male exposing themselves to a woman/girl in public is always indecent exposure. There's even a case that was rule not exposure, because the guy was such a fatass you couldn't see his genitals, even when he was nude: https://nypost.com/2023/05/07/trans-woma...-coverage/

Too bad simple laws are another thing you can't understand.

[Magical Realist]

But a male exposing themselves to a woman/girl in public is always indecent exposure.

LOL Pretty sure there are a lot of female art students and colonies of nudists who would laugh at that. Why we even had our famous World Naked Bike Ride here in Portland a few weeks ago. But then you were never one to understand the complicated many-grayed reality of the world outside of the letter of the law, were you?

[Railko]

Your opinions are welcome, Raikuo. Glad you joined the forum.

Thank you! I have been looking for a place like this for quite a while now. I saw some of the interesting discussions and decided to hop right in 

There's been plenty of reports of men exposing themselves to women and young girls in locker rooms. Many women are uncomfortable with strange men being able to watch them change clothes.
Even using drugs to reduce testosterone, any man will still have way more testosterone, muscle mass, bone density, etc. than a woman. Women have been permanently injured competing against these men in sports. So it's even a safety issue.

Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical sex differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.
- https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9331831/

At the risk of sounding nitpicky, most of the articles you linked there didn't specify whether it was accidental or purposefully exposing. In my opinion, it matters because in locker rooms accidental slips do happen to both genders (ex. a nip slip for women) and as long as it wasn't done to be lewd I wouldn't consider it indecent exposure. Of the incidents that were indecent though it seems like people were handling the matter, or trying to? 

But in any case their trans identity (whether they are or aren't trans) shouldn't hold back people from taking action, if they're being indecent they should face penalties. (Although I know it's easier said than done, especially since people will assume good faith in these situations and be wary of confronting a minority.)

It's true many changes are irreversible (like the growth that comes with testosterone) but over the years it all evens out to where even if a trans woman has a little bit of an advantage (ex. 0.2% more aerobic capacity than a woman) a cis woman can still potentially have an advantage. (I'm getting this information from the last journal I linked; it's slightly more recent and it's conculsions seem sound.) That is of course if the trans woman has been transitioned long enough.

If they're accidentally hurting women, then the sports should be divided into weight classes then, and the journal I linked also suggested similar. I can't imagine a 160lb trans woman crashing into a girl having any more of an impact than a 160lb cis woman.

Khelif had intended to return to international competition at the Eindhoven Box Cup in June 2025. However, following World Boxing's announcement of mandatory sex testing, tournament officials reported that Khelif had not registered for the event. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imane_Khelif

A cis woman wouldn't have any trouble submitting to sex testing.

Actually, they might. From what I've heard, testing for sex is very invasive, depending on how they decide to do it. While its fairly likely Imane is a natal woman, there's a small chance that testing identifies an intersex condition or hormonal difference. Algeria (got the place wrong, it's not Albania lol) is very anti-LGBT (there would be no way for her to transition there) and she has a lot to lose socially if it turned out there was something wrong with her genetically or hormonally. And if she did happen to be intersex, she would have to take treatments to reduce her testosterone - basically hormone replacement therapy to play as she is. Under those conditions, I could completely understand not wanting to submit to testing.

And this kinda loops back to my other point - why is it that a woman who is really good drives suspicion of her being an imposter in some way? If womens sports is only for women, then there shouldn't be any need to cut her or any other woman down further - she's just really good at what she does.

[Syne]

But a male exposing themselves to a woman/girl in public is always indecent exposure.

LOL Pretty sure there are a lot of female art students and colonies of nudists who would laugh at that. Why we even had our famous World Naked Bike Ride here in Portland a few weeks ago. But then you were never one to understand the complicated many-grayed reality of the world outside of the letter of the law, were you?

You're cherry-picking cases that are consensual. If you're an art student studying nudes or a nudist/at a nude beach, you've consented to the situation.
Just because Portland is a depraved shithole that subjects the public to nudity without consent doesn't change the fact that it is without consent.

You do understand consent, don't you?
Or do you defend pedos too?

---

At the risk of sounding nitpicky, most of the articles you linked there didn't specify whether it was accidental or purposefully exposing. In my opinion, it matters because in locker rooms accidental slips do happen to both genders (ex. a nip slip for women) and as long as it wasn't done to be lewd I wouldn't consider it indecent exposure. Of the incidents that were indecent though it seems like people were handling the matter, or trying to? 

Irrelevant. Urinating in public (not a restroom) is often considered indecent exposure, without any intent to expose. It happens because the person is in the wrong place. Just like a transwoman in a women's only space. What you consider indecent is irrelevant. What matters is how the actual women involved feel about it. Or do you deny them that?

(I'm getting this information from the last journal I linked; it's slightly more recent and it's conculsions seem sound.)

Only a review article of older studies, put together by a department of Exercise Sciences and Recreation, not anyone in a hard science field. It's conclusions are obviously biased with social science, apparent in phrases like "being their authentic selves."

If they're accidentally hurting women, then the sports should be divided into weight classes then, and the journal I linked also suggested similar. I can't imagine a 160lb trans woman crashing into a girl having any more of an impact than a 160lb cis woman.

Weight classes do not help. A trans woman of the same weight would still have higher muscle mass and bone density (e.g. be able to hit harder and take hits easier) than a cis woman. What you "can't imagine" is an argument from incredulity.

Khelif had intended to return to international competition at the Eindhoven Box Cup in June 2025. However, following World Boxing's announcement of mandatory sex testing, tournament officials reported that Khelif had not registered for the event. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imane_Khelif[/indent]
A cis woman wouldn't have any trouble submitting to sex testing.

Actually, they might. From what I've heard, testing for sex is very invasive, ...

World Boxing uses a PCR test. The same nasal or throat swap test used to test for Covid. If that's too invasive, there were billions of people "invaded" during the pandemic.

And this kinda loops back to my other point - why is it that a woman who is really good drives suspicion of her being an imposter in some way? If womens sports is only for women, then there shouldn't be any need to cut her or any other woman down further - she's just really good at what she does.

It's not a matter of being "really good." It's a matter of significant deviation from statistical likelihood... like winning Olympic boxing gold without losing a single round. It's breaking every record set by cis women, depriving them of titles, awards, and historical records.

But yes, due to the prevalence of trans women, we now have to question whether homely or mannish looking women and statistically unlikely sports performances are due to being male. Just more ways that men invading women's spaces disadvantages actual women.

[Magical Realist]

You're cherry-picking cases that are consensual.

But a male exposing themselves to a woman/girl in public is always indecent exposure.

Seems a crucial word to leave out of a law. You should quote supposed laws accurately next time instead of miswording them and now contradicting yourself. It would make you look less stupid if that's even possible. Don't think you'll be consulted for legal advice any time soon.