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‘Religious’ exemptions & vaccine mandates + Biden's belief flip-flop on abortion

#1
C C Offline
‘Religious’ exemptions add legal thorns to looming COVID vaccine mandates
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2021/09/10/...-mandates/

EXCERPTS: No major denomination opposes vaccination. [...] Still, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) grants broad leeway to what constitutes a sincerely held religious belief. As a result, some experts predict most employers and administrators won’t want to challenge such objections from their employees.

[...] The Food and Drug Administration’s full approval of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine on Aug. 23 could bring the matter to a head. Many government agencies, health care providers, colleges and the military had been awaiting the move before enforcing mandates.

California, which abolished nonmedical exemptions for childhood vaccination in 2015, has led the way on covid vaccine mandates. Democratic Gov. Gavin Newsom’s July 26 order for state employees and health care workers to be fully vaccinated or submit to weekly testing was the first of its kind, as was a similar declaration Aug. 11 for all teachers and staff at both public and private schools. The 23-campus California State University system joined UC in requiring vaccination of all students and staff, and companies like Google, Facebook and Twitter have announced mandatory proof of employee vaccination for those who return to their offices.

The University of California is requiring proof of vaccination for all staffers and students across its 10 campuses, a decision that potentially affects half a million people. But like many other businesses, it makes room for those who wish to request an exemption “on medical, disability or religious grounds,” adding that it is required by law to do so.

Nothing in history suggests that a large number of students or staff members will seek such an out — but then, no previous vaccine conversation has been as overtly politicized as the one around covid.

“This country is going to mandates. It just is. Every other alternative has been tried,” said Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious diseases expert at UC-San Francisco. “That phrase, ‘religious exemption,’ is very big. But it’s going to be quite hard in the current climate — in a mass health crisis, with a vaccine in place that works — to just let any such religious claims go.”

Indeed, while pop-up anti-vaccine churches have long offered reluctant parents ways to exempt their kids from shots, these days churches, internet-based religious businesses and others seem to be offering covid vaccination exemptions wholesale.

[...] As for the objection itself, the commission’s advice is vague. Employers “should ordinarily assume that an employee’s request for religious accommodation is based on a sincerely held religious belief,” the EEOC says. Employers have the right to ask for supporting documentation, but employees’ religious beliefs don’t have to hew to any specific or organized faith.

The distinction between religion and ideology is blurring among those seeking exemptions. [...] A surgical technician working at Dignity Health, which has ordered its employees to be fully vaccinated by Nov. 1, said she was awaiting a response from the company’s human resources department on her request for a religious exemption. She freely explained her reasons for applying by referencing two Bible passages and listing vaccine ingredients she said are “harmful to the human body.” But she didn’t want anyone to know she applied for the religious exemption.

A state’s right to require vaccination has been settled law since a 1905 Supreme Court ruling that upheld compulsory smallpox vaccination in Massachusetts. Legal experts say that right has been upheld repeatedly [...] “Under current law it is clear that no religious exemption is required,” Erwin Chemerinsky, dean of UC-Berkeley’s law school, told KHN. Clearly, that is not preventing people from seeking one... (MORE - details)


Opinion: Religious exemptions to the vaccine should be rare — but they should exist
https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2021/9/1...ould-exist

[1]Securing public health in a pandemic is surely a compelling interest that justifies vaccine requirements. But that shouldn’t neglect First Amendment principles[/i]

EXCERPTS: In an op-ed published in The New York Times earlier this week, former pastor Curtis Chang argues that religious exemptions to employer vaccination requirements should never be permitted under Title VII — the federal law that requires employers to provide a reasonable accommodation to their employees’ sincerely held religious beliefs or practices. Such accommodations should not exist, argues Chang, because “there is no actual religious basis for exemptions from vaccine mandates in any established stream of Christianity.”

As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I am inclined to agree with Chang’s argument that Christianity, properly understood, does not require abstention from vaccines. [...] But as a lawyer, the question is not whether a person’s religious beliefs are correct according to the authorities of their denomination. Heretics have as much a claim to religious freedom as the orthodox. A person may sincerely hold a religious belief — and claim the protection of Title VII for that belief — even if that belief is heretical. The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the First Amendment forbids courts from deciding who is right and who is wrong on a disputed question of religious doctrine.

The question under Title VII is whether the objection to vaccination is a sincerely held religious belief. To be clear, that is not — and should not be — an easy hurdle to clear. Title VII does not protect a mere preference not to take a vaccine, for example. Nor does it protect a belief that a vaccine is simply unsafe or ineffective, or part of a conspiracy to exert political control. Nor does it — or should it — protect a person who disingenuously cloaks such secular objections in religious language.

Also, establishing a sincere religious objection to vaccines is only the first step under Title VII. Once you clear that hurdle, the next question is whether accommodating that religious belief is possible without imposing an undue burden on the employer’s right to maintain a safe workplace.

[...] Chang’s op-ed only addresses Title VII, and the legal issues are a little different when the vaccine mandate comes from a government agency rather than a private employer, but the law still balances individual rights against public health... (MORE - missing details)


Biden's personal belief flip-flop on abortion
https://www.newsmax.com/politics/archbis...d/1035765/

EXCERPTS: Wilton Gregory, archbishop of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Washington, D.C., said President Joe Biden is ''not demonstrating Catholic teaching'' after the president last week shared his opinion about when ''life begins.''

Speaking at a press gathering Thursday, Gregory said: ''The Catholic Church teaches, and has taught, that life — human life — begins at conception. So, the president is not demonstrating Catholic teaching."

Following the U.S. Supreme Court's decision to allow a restrictive abortion law to go into effect in Texas, the president told White House reporters he did not ''agree'' that life begins at conception. ''I have been and continue to be a strong supporter of Roe v. Wade. 'I respect them — those who believe life begins at the moment of conception and all — I respect that. Don't agree, but I respect that,'' Biden said.

The National Catholic Register, however, was quick to point to Biden's contradiction when he responded to the same question in a 2012 debate with Republican Paul Ryan of Wisconsin. ''Life begins at conception, that's the church's judgment. I accept it in my personal life,'' Biden said.

[...] The New York Post said the president had done a ''flip-flop'' on the issue of when life begins. ''I'm prepared to accept that the moment of conception is a human life and being,'' Biden said in a 2015 interview. ''But I'm not prepared to say that to other God-fearing, non-God-fearing people that have a different view.''

The Post also reported about a 2007 interview Biden gave to Tim Russert on NBC's "Meet the Press" in which once again stated his view on when life begins. ''I am prepared to accept my church's view. I think it's a tough one. I have to accept that on faith.' (MORE - details)
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#2
Leigha Offline
Yea, I’m not sure if Biden wrestles with his Catholic beliefs against his stance on abortion, but as the POTUS, he can’t be swayed by his personal, religious values. I’m not sure if you can be 100% committed to your faith values and 100% committed to the secular role of POTUS. Something’s gotta give.

So, it becomes a personal issue for him to resolve, yet he should probably stop touting how proud he is to be Catholic when he cherry picks what he follows, because he may confuse other Catholics.
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#3
Syne Offline
How is a stance against killing babies not a secular concern? Is a stance against rape and murder just a personal, religious value?
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#4
Leigha Offline
Well, many people believe it's not murder, it's not taking of a life. Many don't believe that an unborn baby even should be considered life. It’s not merely a legal issue anymore, or even a political one; it’s become an ideology, which needs to be addressed before laws can be changed. I believe that all life (including the unborn) is valuable and should be treated equally, but that too is an ideology, the “opposition” might say.

Not entirely sure what Biden actually believes - if he really believes in his heart of hearts what his faith teaches, yet panders to what he thinks women want or does he actually think that unborn life isn't really life? He's a teleprompter President, so it's difficult to get a clear read as to what he genuinely believes.
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#5
C C Offline
(Sep 10, 2021 06:56 PM)Leigha Wrote: Yea, I’m not sure if Biden wrestles with his Catholic beliefs against his stance on abortion, but as the POTUS, he can’t be swayed by his personal, religious values. I’m not sure if you can be 100% committed to your faith values and 100% committed to the secular role of POTUS. Something’s gotta give.

So, it becomes a personal issue for him to resolve, yet he should probably stop touting how proud he is to be Catholic when he cherry picks what he follows, because he may confuse other Catholics.

Just by virtue of his political orientation, I doubt that keeping the two separated in the past was actually a challenge for him. So to suddenly switch to asserting that as an off-duty citizen he doesn't believe it starts at conception is kind of odd. But then again, it's Biden -- he might have had another cognitive event and not even realize what he said.

Seriously, though, I expect his advisory team or his wife Edith ... er, Jill... and the vice-president probably gave him a woodshed talk about it after rumblings in some part of call-out culture land.
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#6
Syne Offline
(Sep 10, 2021 07:25 PM)Leigha Wrote: Well, many people believe it's not murder, it's not taking of a life. Many don't believe that an unborn baby even should be considered life. It’s not merely a legal issue anymore, or even a political one; it’s become an ideology, which needs to be addressed before laws can be changed. I believe that all life (including the unborn) is valuable and should be treated equally, but that too is an ideology, the “opposition” might say.

Not entirely sure what Biden actually believes - if he really believes in his heart of hearts what his faith teaches, yet panders to what he thinks women want or does he actually think that unborn life isn't really life? He's a teleprompter President, so it's difficult to get a clear read as to what he genuinely believes.

Wait, their beliefs have to be addressed before the laws can be changed? And who addressed the vast majority who believed abortion was murder before Roe v Wade? No one. The "opposition" is scientifically illiterate, as science has known when life begins for a very long time. Don't make excuses for immoral morons.
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#7
Leigha Offline
There are a variety of reasons why women get abortions, not “understanding” science plays a role, but it’s not a stand alone reason. We have to be willing to have respectful conversations with people who don’t (won’t) see how the cultural narratives around abortion have led women (and society) astray. If you help one mind to change, that will have a ripple effect.

In light of this topic, I googled “abortion” and a thread on Reddit came up, whereby a woman shared that she had an abortion because she wasn’t “emotionally or financially ready to be a mother.” She seemed to understand the depth of her decision (that it was a life) to which she received post after post of other “Redditors” praising her choice. That is part of the ideology - “abortion is liberating and empowering” - that needs to be unpacked, if you want to help women and bring about change. Understanding where people are coming from is a good first step to presenting another view that maybe they hadn’t considered.
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#8
Syne Offline
(Sep 10, 2021 10:55 PM)Leigha Wrote: There are a variety of reasons why women get abortions, not “understanding” science plays a role, but it’s not a stand alone reason. We have to be willing to have respectful conversations with people who don’t (won’t) see how the cultural narratives around abortion have led women (and society) astray. If you help one mind to change, that will have a ripple effect.

In light of this topic, I googled “abortion” and a thread on Reddit came up, whereby a woman shared that she had an abortion because she wasn’t “emotionally or financially ready to be a mother.” She seemed to understand the depth of her decision (that it was a life) to which she received post after post of other “Redditors” praising her choice. That is part of the ideology - “abortion is liberating and empowering” - that needs to be unpacked, if you want to help women and bring about change. Understanding where people are coming from is a good first step to presenting another view that maybe they hadn’t considered.

Are you going to have "respectful conversations" with rapists? Do you think you can change their minds? Do you think one person can overcome a whole life of leftist propaganda? Most former leftists are so because they saw the hypocrisy on their own side, not because some conservative opened their eyes. And as soon as a former leftist converts, they are ostracized by anyone who could possible become a "ripple effect." That's how leftism insulates its own ignorance.

That woman obviously didn't know that, scientifically, she killed a baby (took a life). Otherwise she'd have taken it more seriously, either up front, with birth control or morning after pill, or adoption, which requires nothing financially from her and nothing emotionally except what she should have considered/dealt with to begin with.

If we want to bring about change, we just need to do as Texas just did. Give already irresponsible women the financial motive to go after abortion doctors after the fact. If they aren't readily financially, what's better than ending the pregnancy and getting a payday?

The fact is that your "understanding" is largely just enabling them. Sympathy just tells them that their choice was okay.
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#9
C C Offline
(Sep 10, 2021 10:55 PM)Leigha Wrote: [...] That is part of the ideology - “abortion is liberating and empowering” - that needs to be unpacked, if you want to help women and bring about change. Understanding where people are coming from is a good first step to presenting another view that maybe they hadn’t considered.


Yah, you have to establish a dialogue to get anywhere, and that means not ridiculing or condemning the ritualistic beliefs of _X_ community right at the outset.

Even in an era where being an unwed mother is no longer a stigma (Sarah Palin's daughter in highlighted skyrockets), adoption is portrayed as more emotionally traumatic. The very title of this book seems to suggest that going through nine months that end in a giveaway is an utterly intolerable option that was whisked away thanks to 1973. I could never have done it, but neither the other, either.

The Girls Who Went Away: The Hidden History of Women Who Surrendered Children for Adoption in the Decades Before Roe v. Wade
https://www.amazon.com/The-Girls-Who-Wen...0143038974

Admittedly, another exercise in futility -- ideology or mindset wise -- that I probably wouldn't waste my time on any more than trying to convert a creationist to evolution. But all the power to those who are willing to spin their wheels trying. Obviously, there has been much more success than what I figuratively alluded to there.
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#10
Leigha Offline
(Sep 10, 2021 08:03 PM)C C Wrote: [...] That is part of the ideology - “abortion is liberating and empowering” - that needs to be unpacked, if you want to help women and bring about change. Understanding where people are coming from is a good first step to presenting another view that maybe they hadn’t considered.



Yah, you have to establish a dialogue to get anywhere, and that means not ridiculing or condemning the ritualistic beliefs of _X_ community right at the outset.

Even in an era where being an unwed mother is no longer a stigma (Sarah Palin's daughter in highlighted skyrockets), adoption is portrayed as more emotionally traumatic. The very title of this book seems to suggest that going through nine months that end in a giveaway is an utterly intolerable option that was whisked away thanks to 1973. I could never have done it, but neither the other, either. 

The Girls Who Went Away: The Hidden History of Women Who Surrendered Children for Adoption in the Decades Before Roe v. Wade
https://www.amazon.com/The-Girls-Who-Wen...0143038974

Admittedly, another exercise in futility -- ideology or mindset wise -- that I probably wouldn't waste my time on any more than trying to convert a creationist to evolution. But all the power to those who are willing to spin their wheels trying. Obviously, there has been much more success than what I figuratively alluded to there.

Good points and agree, that either choice would be daunting. When it comes to ideologies, I want to know what motivates people to make the decisions they make, when it comes to anything really. It would be refreshing to see an honest dialogue for once between politicians on the left and right - instead of the right saying ''it's murder'' in response to the left saying ''it's a woman's right to choose.'' Each side talking past one another. It never seems to go past a variation of those two themes.

Anyway...

I'm going to check out that book, thanks for linking.
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