Trump falsely accuses Ukraine of starting the war

#31
Syne Offline
Again, moronic nonsense.

Putin waited until Biden demonstrated America's weakness. And remember, it was Obama, with Biden as VP, who didn't bat an eye at Putin taking Crimea... as well as letting Assad cross his "red line" and letting Putin swoop in to handle Syria's chemical weapons. And the FBI, under Biden, admitted the Hunter laptop was real... and in a computer repair shop in the US. But go ahead and make up whatever bullshit feeds your delusional TDS.

Completely ignore that Russia and Ukraine had been fighting along the Donbas region since the Crimea annexation (prior to Trump), and culminating in the invasion. But all those facts are very inconvenient to your delusions.
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#32
confused2 Offline
Background (my interpretation - could well be wrong)-
Gorbachev resigned on 25 December 1991 and what was left of the Soviet parliament voted to dissolve the [Soviet] union the following day.

In 1991, Crimea regained autonomy and became the Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic
In 1992, Crimea became the Republic of Crimea, but ***the Ukrainian parliament annulled the declaration of independence***
In 1992, Crimea became the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, with special economic status

I am not clear whether Crimea ever really 'belonged' to Ukraine - did they just unilaterally lay claim to it?


In 2014, Russian soldiers (sort of) invaded Ukraine (actually Crimea) and seized the Crimean parliament.
Russia followed this up with a (disputed) referendum in Crimea which showed support for joining Russia. The water is very muddy at this point .. was Crimea free to choose its own path .. did Ukraine (even now) really have any right to speak for the region it effectively annexed in 1992?

On March 11, 2014, Crimea declared independence and requested to join Russia
On March 18, 2014, Russia formally incorporated Crimea

The situation regarding the real invasion of Ukraine by Russia is entirely different.

As Stryder suggests .. Putin might well be thinking Trump/Republicans are his kind of people .. post invasion they just needed to hang in until Trump gets elected.

Edit..
The situation now is that Trump has offered to take 25% of Ukraines resources knowing Zelensky won't agree. He has done his 'ending the war in a day' thing with an offer that has been refused. If Putin thought the offer was in any way genuine he'd have responded with "How about I take all of Ukraine's resources?" .. which is (I guess) Trump's real 'deal'.

Edit .. Breaking News (23 Feb '25)
'We are ready to share,' says Zelensky on resources deal with US

How does Trump get out of this?
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#33
Syne Offline
Easy. If the US has a vested interest in Ukraine's rare minerals, then Russian aggression becomes aggression against a US interest. While Putin has done a lot of saber rattling about NATO encroaching on Russia, a guarantee Ukraine won't join NATO (but maybe the EU), territory largely populated with Russians, and the threat of US retaliation should be enough to halt any further ambitions of Putin, restore peace in the region, and give Ukraine much needed security guarantees.

Putin talks a big game from a defensive position (of NATO bringing the US into a direct conflict), but few, if any, think Putin would be the aggressor toward the US, or it's interests. Putin is evil, but he's not stupid.
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#34
Magical Realist Offline
IOW Trump is a petty and vindictive prick who takes everything personally. He is totally unqualified to make decisions and policies as commander in chief and an ally to other countries.

Trump’s sudden turn against Zelensky came as a shock to many Americans. It shouldn’t have.

"It's hard to overstate the shock that Donald Trump’s recent attacks on Volodymyr Zelensky have caused among Ukraine’s supporters. In the three years since Moscow started the full-scale war, Washington has positioned itself as Kyiv’s strongest ally. The 2022 invasion initially appeared to breathe new life into the transatlantic alliance, and for a time, support for Ukraine even became a rare bipartisan issue in the United States. But judging by numerous statements from his former associates, Trump’s feelings about Zelensky were shaped long before support for Ukraine became an American political football. Meduza looks back at a key chapter of the U.S. president’s political evolution: his first impeachment trial.

On February 18, Trump called into question Zelensky’s legitimacy, echoing rhetoric that Russian officials and propagandists have been repeating since the start of the full-scale invasion. Trump even went so far as to falsely accuse Zelensky of causing the war, saying that Ukraine “should have never started it” and “could have made a deal.”

A day later, the U.S. president doubled down on his attacks, calling Zelensky a “dictator without elections” and suggesting he profited from Moscow’s invasion. The tirade was remarkable coming not only from the U.S. president but from the leader of a party whose elected officials extolled Zelensky’s heroism — and contrasted him with Putin — in the war’s early days.

Trump’s remarks, made just a week after his warm words for Vladimir Putin following their first phone call of his new term, shocked many in both the U.S. and Ukraine. Ukrainian mayors and governors responded with coordinated statements of support for Zelensky. “No lying creature, neither in Moscow, nor in Washington, nor anywhere, has the right to open his mouth against him,” wrote Dnipro Mayor Borys Filatov.

Meanwhile, The Wall Street Journal reported that Trump’s comments caught many Republican lawmakers “off guard,” with multiple members of Congress ignoring reporters’ questions about the topic.

Even the Kremlin was surprised by the “harsh tone” of Trump’s comments, according to Bloomberg. One source told the outlet that the U.S. president’s attacks “exceeded any expectations in Moscow that the U.S. view of the war could be turned to Russia’s advantage.”

But Trump’s animosity towards Zelensky isn’t without precedent. In fact, a closer look at their shared history suggests that the U.S. president’s public turn against Ukraine’s wartime leader was entirely predictable.

‘Trump hates Zelensky with a passion’

More than five years ago — well before the full-scale war — a newly elected Volodymyr Zelensky unwittingly became part of a scandal that could have been the end of Trump’s political career.

In October 2019, then-U.S. Acting Ambassador to Ukraine Bill Taylor testified in impeachment inquiry hearings that Trump had pressured the Ukrainian president to launch an investigation related to Joe Biden, who was emerging as one of Trump’s main opponents in the 2020 presidential race.

Trump was seeking an investigation into Joe Biden’s son, Hunter, who served on the board of directors for the Ukrainian energy company Burisma from 2014 until 2019. Trump’s team alleged that, as vice president, Joe Biden had urged Ukraine to fire its prosecutor general to thwart an investigation into Burisma that could implicate Hunter. Trump himself repeated the claim, without providing evidence, during his call with Zelensky.


A month after Taylor’s statements, Trump’s then-E.U. Ambassador Gordon Sondland testified that he had, at the president’s “express direction,” offered Zelensky a White House meeting in exchange for investigating the Biden family. He also said he believed Trump had made U.S. military aid to Ukraine — then in its fifth year of defending against Russian aggression — contingent on Zelensky announcing such an investigation.

These allegations, which surfaced after a CIA officer filed a whistleblower complaint over the call, were the basis for Trump’s first impeachment in December 2019. Though the impeachment didn’t lead to a conviction, the episode made him only the third U.S. president in history to be impeached and set the stage for him to become the first to be impeached twice. While Trump has since learned to use institutional censure against him to rally political support, the 2019 impeachment was his first experience facing official condemnation on such a large scale.

Trump reacted with predictable rage. Still, his public statements about Zelensky and Ukraine were usually fairly restrained in the years that followed. Days after Russia’s full-scale invasion, for example, he called the Ukrainian president a “brave man” who was “hanging in.” However, his private remarks reportedly painted a different picture. In 2024, Lev Parnas, a former fixer for Trump’s ex-lawyer Rudy Giuliani, told Politico that Trump “hates Ukraine” and believes it “was the cause of all [his] problems.” He also said that “Trump hates Zelensky with a passion.”

Strings attached

With Moscow occupying about a fifth of Ukraine and the Ukrainian military on the back foot, the American president’s leverage over Zelensky today is significantly greater than it was in 2019.

At the Munich Security Conference last week, Zelensky reportedly rejected an offer from the Trump administration that would have given the U.S. control over Ukraine’s mineral and oil and gas reserves, ports, and unspecified “other infrastructure,” according to The Telegraph.

The terms of the proposed deal were “worse than the financial penalties imposed on Germany and Japan after their defeat in 1945,” the newspaper noted, adding: “If this draft were accepted, Trump’s demands would amount to a higher share of Ukrainian GDP than reparations imposed on Germany at the Versailles Treaty.”

Calling the deal “blackmail for peace,” the Ukrainian news site European Pravda argued that Trump’s “business wing” was exploiting Ukraine’s vulnerability to push an unfavorable agreement. But “when it became clear that Kyiv wouldn’t cave, they backed off,” the outlet wrote.

However, on Thursday, Reuters reported that Trump’s team may keep pursuing the deal. “We need to get this guy back to reality,” one Trump advisor reportedly told the agency, referring to the Ukrainian president.

According to Reuters’s sources, Trump wants to show the American people that the U.S. is recouping the cost of the aid it has provided to Ukraine so far. With his appetite for pressure-heavy deals, it’s unclear what else the president may be hoping to get from Ukraine.

Meanwhile, the Trump administration has said little about what demands they would make of Russia as part of a potential ceasefire deal. “I think the Russians want to see the war end… But I think they have the cards a little bit, because they’ve taken a lot of territory, so they have the cards,” Trump told journalists on Wednesday."

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2025/02/20/...ldn-t-have
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#35
Syne Offline
Biden literally bragged about threatening Ukraine aide unless they fired the prosecutor investigating Burisma.
Biden Tells Story of Getting the Ukraine Prosecutor Fired
The Ukrainian prosecutor was investigating Biden's son & his company was fired at Biden's request after threatening to withhold $1B in aid.


See how these people lie about it only being "alleged" and "without evidence."
So Biden was self-serving and Trump was trying to bring transparency.
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#36
confused2 Offline
This story.. [turns out to be total bullshittery see Edit at the end]
(Feb 23, 2025 09:08 PM)Syne Wrote: Biden literally bragged about threatening Ukraine aide unless they fired the prosecutor investigating Burisma.
Biden Tells Story of Getting the Ukraine Prosecutor Fired
The Ukrainian prosecutor was investigating Biden's son & his company was fired at Biden's request after threatening to withhold $1B in aid.


See how these people lie about it only being "alleged" and "without evidence."
So Biden was self-serving and Trump was trying to bring transparency.
Doesn't conflict with this..
Quote:Trump’s then-E.U. Ambassador Gordon Sondland testified that he had, at the president’s “express direction,” offered Zelensky a White House meeting in exchange for investigating the Biden family. He also said he believed Trump had made U.S. military aid to Ukraine — then in its fifth year of defending against Russian aggression — contingent on Zelensky announcing such an investigation.
The problem for Zelensky being that, having earlier taken $1B to stop the investigation into Hunter - can he get another (say) $1B for restarting it. We might as well get to the end of the story - did Zelensky restart investigations into Hunter Biden?


Edit .. here's more of the clip of Biden getting the prosecutor fired
https://www.facebook.com/WhiteHouse45/vi...800724150/

From comments (below) it seems the prosecutor was removed for NOT following through on political curruption cases. Not quite how Syne wants to spin it.

Quote:Yes, true. That was indeed the approved US policy decision, reviewed with and approved by Congress in a bipartisan manner, and aligned with our European partners, like the UK. Thanks for pointing out how Joe Biden acted in accordance with the best interests of America and in accordance with open and standard policies

Quote:There are some major differences...
-Many countries were calling for the removal of that Ukrainian prosecutor and it was not just the US or Biden.
-The move had high bipartisan- support in the congress.
-Prosecutor Viktor Shokin was removed because he was not following through on corruption cases related to members of the political party and had nothing to do with the Burisma case.
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#37
Magical Realist Offline
Quote:-Prosecutor Viktor Shokin was removed because he was not following through on corruption cases related to members of the political party and had nothing to do with the Burisma case.

Thanks for clearing that up. Synthia likes to take things out of context and twist words to keep everybody distracted from the orange clown's latest bloopers. It's SOP for the MAGA sheep...
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#38
Syne Offline
Two things can be true at the same time, and the official reasons for his firing are not likely to divulge covering for Hunter at Joe's behest. That would have actually undercut firing for corruption.
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#39
Secular Sanity Offline
(Feb 24, 2025 12:28 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: Synthia

This type of insult reinforces the idea that being "like a woman" is a bad thing. That’s a bit rich coming from you, MR.
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#40
Yazata Offline
I think that a very good case can be made that Ukraine, the US and our European "allies" created the conditions that led to the Ukraine war breaking out. Certainly from the Russian perspective it looks that way.

In 1990, the Soviet Union collapsed. The Warsaw Pact ceased to exist. But NATO remained as a fundamentally anti-Russian alliance. It's easy to understand why the former communist countries of Eastern Europe like Poland wanted to be NATO members, but the fact remains that NATO's continued existence and NATO's expansion eastwards were perceived as both threatening and provocative in Moscow.

During the 1990's Russia was very weak and its survival as a unified country was in doubt. The United States and Western Europe talked a good game about how they desired friendly relations with Russia, while Moscow was being flooded with American and London bankers, businessmen, advisors and (some of them little more than) con-men trying to exploit Russia and make a fast buck at their expense. What's more, the wave of western media hit and the Russian people started to feel like outsiders were trying to westernize their culture in ways that many Russians didn't like. A nationalist reaction started to take shape.

Then Putin replaced Yeltsin and exerted some strong (if authoritarian) leadership determined to stop the rot. The fear receded that Russia would fly apart as remote regions declared their independence. The Russian military began to rebuild.

In the early 2010's, a pro-Russian president was elected in Ukraine. Accusations quickly came from the west about how corrupt he was. (Almost certainly true, everyone in Ukraine is corrupt.)

And extremely violent street riots "spontaneously" erupted in Kyiv. (We now know that they were facilitated and engineered to some extent by the US and other allied governments like the British.) The Ukrainian security services turned on the president and his pro-Russian government was replaced by a pro-western government in a coup. The old CIA regime-change playbook.

The Russians perceived these events as very much against their national interests and the Russian military replied by seizing Crimea in an almost bloodless 2014 takeover. (Crimea is ~90% ethnic Russians and was part of the RSFSR (Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic) until the 1950's when the Soviet Union's central government transferred it to what was then the subordinate Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.)

The pro-western Ukrainian government started agitating strongly to join NATO. The US and some (not all) of the Europeans started talking about how Ukrainian NATO membership was inevitable. Russia strongly objected. NATO got its back up and started posturing: Nobody tells us who can and can't join NATO! Russia announced that Ukraine joining a hostile military alliance whose only apparent purpose is to threaten Russia would be an intolerable threat to Russian national interests and would mean war.

Russia warned of war repeatedly. And many in the NATO capitals dismissed the warnings as bluster and bluff. So they kept pushing. And Russia crossed the border in February 2022.

That's how things are seen in Russia. In their eyes, the war was forced on them by foreign enemies who have been pushing against vital Russian national interests for decades.

A big part of the problem here in the US and Europe is that our rulers have somehow made the Ukrainian point of view the only one heard in our media. Anyone who takes any cognizance of the Russian point point of view is accused of repeating "Russian talking-points" (so what?) or even of being a "Russian asset" (tantamount to being a spy I guess). (Why doesn't mouthing Ukrainian 'talking points' make people 'Ukrainian assets'?)

The thing is, a negotiated settlement of the war will only happen if both sides' concerns are addressed. I think that President Trump and his people are trying to do that and that they are to be applauded for their efforts to halt the biggest war in Europe since World War II, a war that is killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of young men.
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