How do you define success and happiness?

(Nov 1, 2018 12:08 AM)Syne Wrote:

(Oct 31, 2018 08:15 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: Syne is always going on about biases, but just from experience, the one that you have to really watch out for in regards to goals is the projection bias. Been there, done that plenty of times. It’s very difficult to avoid. You think you know yourself so well but you’d be surprised by how much you can change, especially when it comes to goals or wants.

Those on the right are no where near as susceptible to projection bias as those on the left, because everyone lives in a world saturated with leftist opinion, in music, movies, news, TV, education, etc.. Even diehard fans of Fox News can't help but face leftists narratives in every other form of media they imbibe.

It doesn't matter how much your goals may change; they're suppose to do that.

I wasn't thinking along the lines of politics. I'm not in a cult for Christ's sake. You wouldn't understand.

(Nov 1, 2018 12:50 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote:

(Nov 1, 2018 12:08 AM)Syne Wrote: Those on the right are no where near as susceptible to projection bias as those on the left, because everyone lives in a world saturated with leftist opinion, in music, movies, news, TV, education, etc.. Even diehard fans of Fox News can't help but face leftists narratives in every other form of media they imbibe.

I wasn't thinking along the lines of politics. I'm not in a cult for Christ's sake. You wouldn't understand.

LOL! Who said anything about a cult?

There are actually two kinds of projection bias. One is "the tendency to project current preferences into the future as if future preferences will be the same as current preferences", and the other is "a cognitive bias in which people overestimate how much other people agree with them" (closely related to the false-consensus effect). I can see that you were talking about the former. Which this comment of mine addressed:

"It doesn't matter how much your goals may change; they're suppose to do that."

I plan to come back to this discussion later, I'm at work and just need to get some things done. (Lest, one of you thinks I'm ignoring your comments lol)

No, no one thinks you're ignoring anything just because you aren't posting. Especially when no one has asked you any questions.
That's only when you having been asked something, are actively responding, AND avoiding stuff. See any difference there?

Quote:And I don't want others to define success for me, because it's subjective, wouldn't we all agree?

I agree. Success has to be individually defined for oneself. If we allow our society or culture to define that for us then achieving it one day we may actually find it's not what we wanted. There is huge pressure by our society for us to ACHIEVE and to accomplish things in our lives like a college education, a high paying career, a nice big house in the burbs, a family, expensive material possessions...But we all have to question these cookie cutter goals that are foisted upon us. What is it that I truly desire? What is it to follow my bliss? What is it for me to be successful?

Societal goals are largely a result of evolutionary psychology. High status, resources, and reproduction are all pro-survival goals. They can be a personal purpose, but usually they are just things people are naturally inclined to want...whether they prioritize them or not.

(Nov 1, 2018 06:50 PM)Syne Wrote: No, no one thinks you're ignoring anything just because you aren't posting. Especially when no one has asked you any questions.
That's only when you having been asked something, are actively responding, AND avoiding stuff. See any difference there?

Relax. The internet is such serious business with you. lol

I'll answer your silly questions, and your mind will be blown. Like I said, be ready.

(Nov 1, 2018 07:26 PM)Leigha Wrote:

(Nov 1, 2018 06:50 PM)Syne Wrote: No, no one thinks you're ignoring anything just because you aren't posting. Especially when no one has asked you any questions.
That's only when you having been asked something, are actively responding, AND avoiding stuff. See any difference there?

Relax. The internet is such serious business with you. lol

I'll answer your silly questions, and your mind will be blown. Like I said, be ready.

Yes, I give people the benefit of the doubt that they aren't just trolling others.
I won't be holding my breath for your answers.

And take note...you're the one who derailed your own thread for this little detour. It wasn't my doing. You know, lest you decide to cry foul later.

(Nov 1, 2018 07:00 PM)Magical Realist Wrote:

Quote:And I don't want others to define success for me, because it's subjective, wouldn't we all agree?

I agree. Success has to be individually defined for oneself. If we allow our society or culture to define that for us then achieving it one day we may actually find it's not what we wanted. There is huge pressure by our society for us to ACHIEVE and to accomplish things in our lives like a college education, a high paying career, a nice big house in the burbs, a family, expensive material possessions...But we all have to question these cookie cutter goals that are foisted upon us. What is it that I truly desire? What is it to follow my bliss? What is it for me to be successful?

Completely agree with you, MR. Society's view of success tends to push people towards the tangible. There are many intangibles such as inner peace, acceptance, joy, love, etc. Success as i see it, for me, is partially defined by not always getting what I want, but finding what i need. Sometimes, all that we think we want, may be an optical illusion designed to trick us into believing we are at our happiest.

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(Oct 31, 2018 06:45 PM)C C Wrote: How do you define [...] happiness?

The classic quote below is a sufficient enough summary with respect to what I (somewhat reflexively or unconsciously) seek to accommodate. It should probably be augmented with not suffering excessively in terms of basic needs, health, and security... with that extended to the welfare of any immediate family members.

George Washington Burnap: "The three grand essentials of happiness are: Something to do, someone to love, and something to hope for."

(Oct 31, 2018 02:35 AM)Leigha Wrote: [...] Do you think that happiness can ever be a permanent state of mind, or is it fleeting?

Judging from the word-unit looks of the term itself, I'm guessing "happiness" is a generalization or average value assessment of how one's life has been going over a span of time. Switching to the specific level, a feeling of bliss would certainly not be continuous or non-interrupted (barring any miracle person who has managed to remain constantly high on drugs since early childhood).

Quote:Is it wrong to want sustainability when it comes to happiness?

The idea that "happiness" should be an expected norm or goal of being human -- as well as obligatorily conveying an impression of enjoying a felicitous life to the public -- is arguably a novel concept rather than an historically entrenched standard. It may also primarily be an outlook of the West, the familiarity with it gradually distributed worldwide in "recent" times (especially by 18th-century American endorsement and later pop-culture).  

Which is to say, I don't know if the idea has been around long enough for a "right or wrong" judgment to be pertinent. Though the possibility slash impossibility of technically and literally achieving constant positive feelings or activity may be addressable. After that (if the case), then maybe potential moral and cultural consequences could be examined.

Quote:[...] What are you the happiest about in your life?

"My offspring" seems to not only be a duty-bound response, but curiously perhaps the sole default one I bother to carry around ready at hand.  

In the specific and transitory sense, instead of myself I tend to apply the adjective "happy" to someone else's purely current, superficial appearances or outer emotional state (could even be a pet or animal, and possibly a crowd).

I'm more like observing that "I'm feeling miserable today" (when that happens), than in observing and celebrating "Wow, I'm happy or not miserable today." Although "I'm happy about _X_" can probably occur as a feeling, and routinely does as part of polite conversation ("I'm so happy for your promotion.")

Quote:[...] How do you define success? [...]

"Success" seems to imply, even entail, a global standard that individuals are trying to meet or measure up to. I.e., what would be the point of the noun in a population of one or even a few? Achievement arises or acquires significance via the comparisons and rivalry of numbers, and the guilt-trip memes that society infects the individual with if they don't strive for that level of accomplishment or reach at least a median stage of it. (But maybe differing contexts / domains could each have its own "success" characteristics and yardstick that is supposed to be ubiquitous in range.)

Accordingly, any personal or subjective meaning I might have for "success" would seem to be in conflict with the concept potentially needing to be universally applicable (at least in a particular context or domain) rather than just satisfying or being confined to me.

~

(In bold, by me) That is something to really think on, for everyone. In my mind, I'm sometimes ''okay'' with the struggles of life, knowing that this is why humans hope in the first place. If there was no struggle, there'd be no need to hope. And hope is a good thing. It is a challenging thing, sometimes, but a good thing, nonetheless. You're right, there is this push and pull within me at times, to at one moment, dispel the belief that I must keep striving to find this euphoric state of mind, and in the next, believe that the striving is what life is all about. I'm a spiritual person and for me, my thoughts about happiness, peace and success are not only wrapped up in the secular. It seems like a tidy way of collecting one's thoughts, if you believe in something beyond you, above you, better than you to hang your hat on. But, there's comfort in that, too. Some might call that being lazy, but that too, satiates me. That's a story for a different thread topic, perhaps.

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(Nov 1, 2018 12:08 AM)Syne Wrote:

(Oct 31, 2018 08:15 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: Syne is always going on about biases, but just from experience, the one that you have to really watch out for in regards to goals is the projection bias. Been there, done that plenty of times. It’s very difficult to avoid. You think you know yourself so well but you’d be surprised by how much you can change, especially when it comes to goals or wants.

Those on the right are no where near as susceptible to projection bias as those on the left, because everyone lives in a world saturated with leftist opinion, in music, movies, news, TV, education, etc.. Even diehard fans of Fox News can't help but face leftists narratives in every other form of media they imbibe.

It doesn't matter how much your goals may change; they're suppose to do that.

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(Oct 31, 2018 09:11 PM)Leigha Wrote:

(Oct 31, 2018 06:51 PM)Syne Wrote: Happiness is not achieving a goal; it's only working toward a goal. And any goal(s) can change. Achieving a goal just means another purpose must be found, and failure may either require a new attempt or a new goal. Happiness is a general sense (and likely state) of well-being, some might describe as flow: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/...-happiness

I don't think happiness is externally contingent, since anyone can make progress toward any goal at any time, even if only planning/visualizing in a way that feels like progress. Although fleeting happiness (a feeling) can have external sources, like when a positive experience completely absorbs your attention.

Disappointment likely only exists where you've either given up on an attainable, but temporarily thwarted, goal or you are holding onto external negativity that is coloring your thoughts.

I have learned how to go into flow at will, but I doubt I could explain what I'm doing. It's a case of being in flow often enough to recognize the triggers, so to speak, and then being able to enter it without even having a specific goal in mind. The best analogy I can think of would be reading a really good book. If you're like me, you get so engrossed that your environment fades away, including sound, and you're not even aware of the words on the page while reading them. A book is passive though; it just happens.

Temporarily thwarted. How does one know it's only temporary? How does one know when it's time to say ...this just isn't working, and I'm done trying? Or maybe success lurks just around the corner, if I keep striving?

I'm asking for a friend.  

I think of inventors, who never gave up, but I wonder if they wanted to. Perhaps the journey towards success is about wanting to quit, but not quitting. Perhaps happiness is about finding a path past the obstacles that at the time, seem insurmountable. People who achieve their goals, aren't immune to pity parties, are they? I've been successful in different areas of my life, and I always forget the struggle. Did Einstein struggle, or are there people who seem to fly above what many of us mere mortals go through? If I'm being honest, anyone who is human, struggles with something.

You know it's time to move on when the goal is no longer a passion. And moving on doesn't mean that goal cannot be picked up again later. Like I said, I often cycle through goals, leaving frustrating ones alone for a while to focus on others, but I eventually get renewed energy to pursue them again. That may be one of the tricks to it. A single, all-consuming goal is probably a bad idea. It's a scarcity of goals. And since pursuing goals is a means to happiness, the more goals the better. That way you always have something to work toward.

Inventors, from my own limited experience, know when to let the mind have time to work out problems in the background. It's like the name/word you're trying so hard to remember but suddenly comes to you hours later, once you've forgotten about it. But yeah, there is a bit of self-discipline and perseverance involved. Another problem people face is not parsing out a goal into manageable steps. Too much focus on the mountain top, instead of the next step, can easily overwhelm you and seem insurmountable.

Self-pity is definitely a bad coping strategy, and high achievers are largely immune to it. I wouldn't consider myself a high achiever, per se, but I never indulge in self-pity. And that's what it is, an indulgence. It's giving in to thoughts that really do not originate with you.

So, you believe that pursuing goals is a means to happiness, but not the sole means. What makes up the rest for you? What you learn in the process? (which if we don't achieve the end goal, what we have learned along the way became a priceless bonus.) Or something else, entirely? What fills the gaps, if you run out of goals to pursue? (hypothetically speaking, a bit hyperbolic, but just for conversation-sake)

What ''advice'' if any, would you give to a nihilist? Is a nihilist capable of true, lasting happiness and peace, in your opinion?

(Nov 2, 2018 03:08 AM)Leigha Wrote:

(Nov 1, 2018 12:08 AM)Syne Wrote: You know it's time to move on when the goal is no longer a passion. And moving on doesn't mean that goal cannot be picked up again later. Like I said, I often cycle through goals, leaving frustrating ones alone for a while to focus on others, but I eventually get renewed energy to pursue them again. That may be one of the tricks to it. A single, all-consuming goal is probably a bad idea. It's a scarcity of goals. And since pursuing goals is a means to happiness, the more goals the better. That way you always have something to work toward.

Inventors, from my own limited experience, know when to let the mind have time to work out problems in the background. It's like the name/word you're trying so hard to remember but suddenly comes to you hours later, once you've forgotten about it. But yeah, there is a bit of self-discipline and perseverance involved. Another problem people face is not parsing out a goal into manageable steps. Too much focus on the mountain top, instead of the next step, can easily overwhelm you and seem insurmountable.

Self-pity is definitely a bad coping strategy, and high achievers are largely immune to it. I wouldn't consider myself a high achiever, per se, but I never indulge in self-pity. And that's what it is, an indulgence. It's giving in to thoughts that really do not originate with you.

So, you believe that pursuing goals is a means to happiness, but not the sole means. What makes up the rest for you? What you learn in the process? (which if we don't achieve the end goal, what we have learned along the way became a priceless bonus.) Or something else, entirely? What fills the gaps, if you run out of goals to pursue? (hypothetically speaking, a bit hyperbolic, but just for conversation-sake)

What ''advice'' if any, would you give to a nihilist? Is a nihilist capable of true, lasting happiness and peace, in your opinion?

Pursuing goals isn't a means to happiness as a goal in itself. IOW, the motivation for pursuing a goal can't be to achieve happiness; goals must have only their own ends as motivation. Happiness is only a side effect, where having it as a goal, even one step removed, likely hinders the stated goal and thereby happiness itself. In that respect it's rather fragile. Something you can't really reach for if you want to attain it.

I'm not sure there is anything more. And I'm not sure goal-oriented thinking really distinguishes a failure from progress. Learning is very often necessary for any goal, so as long as we don't get completely discouraged, any setback becomes just one of the many necessary steps toward a purpose, even refining the goal itself. One we may not have anticipated, but necessary on our particular path nonetheless.

Luckily, humans are significance generators. We can make just about anything a worthwhile goal. The down side there is that, if we don't actively create goals, we will actively create problems. There's a kind of dichotomy between goals and problems (purposes and challenges). If we are creating and pursuing goals (so we have no scarcity of goals), the goals supply all the problems we need for an interesting life (and life is dull without any challenges to solve or overcome). But if we lack goals, the scarcity of problems will lead to a subconscious desire for problems (the overcoming of which becoming de facto goals). Any goal is better than no goal at all, even problems. I know that may sound odd, but how many people have you known that had problems you thought were trivial but they perceived as overwhelming? There's truth in the saying that we are never given more than we can handle.

And what people can handle has to do with the related dichotomy of cause and effect. Those who are more at cause in life are creating goals, while those who are more at effect are busy creating problems. While both goals and problems are internally generated, those at effect perceive their problems to be external because they feel like they are an effect of something else. It's largely a problem of self-awareness.

I suppose a nihilist can believe life is meaningless while still creating goals. They could have their own subjective meanings, even just about their own survival, while believing that life has none inherently. But more often than not it does seem that these sorts of beliefs do contribute to, or are the result of, being at effect. Learning to solve their scarcity of goals may change their general outlook.


And for those who find just up and creating goals to be difficult, there is a "baby-steps" solution. Create problems. Not like go and get yourself arrested, or into fights, or anything. Just invent problems you could be to yourself. For instance, if you don't set your alarm, you could be late for work. Doing that enough would likely get you fired. That might be a significant problem. Don't actually do it, just start inventing as many such problems as you could be to yourself. Get creative. Eventually you might just find that you suddenly have a goal.


Sorry. That's probably a lot to digest.