(Jun 22, 2018 07:25 AM)Syne Wrote: SS tried to be misandrist without any factual support, and I simply offered facts.
It was just funny facetiousness.
"Actually, the takeaway here is not that the overthinker thought too much. It’s that he didn’t think enough.
It’s entirely possible, in almost every possible scenario, to have different beliefs from a group of people, and still not be a jerk to them. You don’t always need to correct others.
Again, how does one know the difference? Here are some quick rules of thumb, inspired by Peirce’s maxim: Ask yourself, what are your goals are in taking this action? Perhaps it is to change their minds. Then ask, will this action actually result in achieving that goal, or am I just doing it for some sense of self-satisfaction? Walking into the middle of their conversation, guns a-blazin’, may not actually achieve the goal of winning their hearts and minds. And finally, is this goal, balanced by its chances of success via this action, worth the cost to achieve it?
The overthinker’s mistake is that he failed to consider all of the consequences of his action."
Witty repartee should not be met with an ad hominem. I wouldn’t exactly call that a rational response.
As yet man is not capable of friendship: men are still dogs, and vultures. Or at the best, beasts.
SyneJun 23, 2018 10:12 PM (This post was last modified: Jun 23, 2018 11:41 PM by Syne.)
No mistake, I just knew you'd completely ignore the first sentence if you were distracted, which obviously happened anyway.
I feel sorry for you if you think friendship doesn't require mutual respect. Only sociopaths have friends they don't respect...reminds my of how you talk about your Christian "friends".
Quite the contrary. Friendship between a man and woman requires a mutually platonic relationship, where neither desires something more. That is just rare in real life, where a man could see a woman as a friend, who he is just not physically attracted to, and the woman feels the same. The problem is that, where the man is not attracted, the woman has an evolutionary predisposition to desire him sexually. People tend to want what they can't have.
If you're an attractive women, good on you. But like most things, it's a blessing and a curse. You have more opportunities for romantic relationships (which could include friendship), but if you foul all those up, you have fewer opportunities for male friendship. If you were fat or ugly, that would be reversed, but you would pine for many of your male friends.
But women seem to have trouble even making new female friends. Why is that?
(Jun 23, 2018 10:12 PM)Syne Wrote: No mistake, I just knew you'd completely ignore the first sentence if you were distracted, which obviously happened anyway.
I ignored it because I don't need to defend myself. I don’t hate men. I’m perfectly capable of having cross-sex relationships because I value people for who they are, not for what they look like.
Syne Wrote:I feel sorry for you if you think friendship doesn't require mutual respect. Only sociopaths have friends they don't respect...reminds my of how you talk about your Christian "friends".
Why, because I don't respect their beliefs? Friends don’t have to agree with each other on everything. Friends can be different without being indifferent towards each other.
Syne Wrote:Quite the contrary. Friendship between a man and woman requires a mutually platonic relationship, where neither desires something more. That is just rare in real life, where a man could see a woman as a friend, who he is just not physically attracted to, and the woman feels the same. The problem is that, where the man is not attracted, the woman has an evolutionary predisposition to desire him sexually. People tend to want what they can't have.
No. The problem is that a man isn't going to initiate a friendship with a woman that he's not attracted to.
Syne Wrote:If you're an attractive women, good on you. But like most things, it's a blessing and a curse.
Yep because physical attractiveness is what society most values in women.
Syne Wrote:But women seem to have trouble even making new female friends. Why is that?
I don't think that's true.
(May 28, 2018 01:15 AM)confused2 Wrote: The common interests and/or common goals in male/female friendships are unlikely to include a game of golf, car maintenance or ... I give in, I can't think of anything else ... EXCEPT SEX ... and this is the problem.
Friendship is mutual valuing. If C2 is right, and we’re valued for sex over our personalities…then this is a problem.
(Jun 23, 2018 10:12 PM)Syne Wrote: No mistake, I just knew you'd completely ignore the first sentence if you were distracted, which obviously happened anyway.
I ignored it because I don't need to defend myself. I don’t hate men. I’m perfectly capable of having cross-sex relationships because I value people for who they are, not for what they look like.
Who said you needed to defend yourself? It's clear to everyone that your humor always snipes in one direction. That's just you expressing who you are. Probably more jealousy than hate.
Who said they valued looks over who people are? Sexual attraction and personal respect are not mutually exclusive. Sexual attraction and platonic relationships just tend to be mutually exclusive. Luckily, romantic relationships can include friendship.
Quote:
Syne Wrote:I feel sorry for you if you think friendship doesn't require mutual respect. Only sociopaths have friends they don't respect...reminds my of how you talk about your Christian "friends".
Why, because I don't respect their beliefs? Friends don’t have to agree with each other on everything. Friends can be different without being indifferent towards each other.
No, because you openly antagonize and ridicule them. And try to tell them how to think (i.e. change them, rather than accept who they are):
(Aug 13, 2017 10:38 PM)Syne Wrote:
(Aug 7, 2017 03:31 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: I just don’t like them thinking that they’re more righteous or better than me. You know, like you do.
What gives you the right to demand people change how they think? That is not a friend. Like any relationship, you should never assume you can change the other person to suit your needs/desires.
Quote:"I don’t like when you bring up your religion, when you know full well that I am an atheist. It makes me feel like you think you’re superior and it’s arrogant."
It’s a bit harsher, but it’s the truth.
So now you not only want to curtail how they think but you want to limit their free expression? What a great friend you must be to have.
"Hey everybody, SS is coming, make sure you don't mention religion...she's insecure, and thinks any mention of it is somehow superior...even though she tries to correct us on scripture like she's the superior one."
They put up with your bullshit too, deary.
Quote:
Syne Wrote:Quite the contrary. Friendship between a man and woman requires a mutually platonic relationship, where neither desires something more. That is just rare in real life, where a man could see a woman as a friend, who he is just not physically attracted to, and the woman feels the same. The problem is that, where the man is not attracted, the woman has an evolutionary predisposition to desire him sexually. People tend to want what they can't have.
No. The problem is that a man isn't going to initiate a friendship with a woman that he's not attracted to.
So men are responsible for both initiating romantic relationships AND friendships? So you still expect them to treat you like a love interest, even in an equal friendship? You want to be wooed into a friendship? O_o
That's just irrational.
Men and women just don't tend to have the kind of common interests that organically lead to friendship, the way same-sex friendships do. Attraction bridges that gap.
Quote:
Syne Wrote:If you're an attractive women, good on you. But like most things, it's a blessing and a curse.
Yep because physical attractiveness is what society most values in women.
And? Men value signals of health in potential mates. And women, seeking to lure good mates, prioritize their appearance.
Quote:
Syne Wrote:But women seem to have trouble even making new female friends. Why is that?
I don't think that's true.
I don't see any argument to the contrary. Maybe, as you allude to above, women are always waiting for someone else to initiate new friendships, even same-sex friendships.
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(May 28, 2018 01:15 AM)confused2 Wrote: The common interests and/or common goals in male/female friendships are unlikely to include a game of golf, car maintenance or ... I give in, I can't think of anything else ... EXCEPT SEX ... and this is the problem.
Friendship is mutual valuing. If C2 is right, and we’re valued for sex over our personalities…then this is a problem.
There's a difference between valuing and shared interests. The latter organically leads to friendship, while the former can even exist outside of friendship or attraction. Friendship is not just mutual valuing for its own sake, otherwise people would not be picky about who they were friends with. It takes some amount of shared interests to value a person enough to call them a friend.
SS Wrote:Friendship is mutual valuing. If C2 is right, and we’re valued for sex over our personalities…then this is a problem.
It's the elephant in the room. Is it the elephant in the room? I'm married and my only friends are birds so I'm not in a position to check this out. Last night 'our' chicks fell off the sloping roof onto our flat roof (an 8 foot drop). Both seem fine. Their first night away from the nest (there is no way back - they can't fly). I've made a bit of a nest for them out of an old sheet.
Syne Wrote:And try to tell them how to think (i.e. change them, rather than accept who they are):
Nope. Just the opposite, in fact.
But maybe Hitchens was right. Religion poisons everything…
Religious faith is, precisely because we are still-evolving creatures, ineradicable. It will never die out, or at least not until we get over our fear of death, and of the dark, and of the unknown, and of each other. For this reason, I would not prohibit it even if I thought I could. Very generous of me, you may say. But will the religious grant me the same indulgence? I ask because there is a real and serious difference between me and my religious friends, and the real and serious friends are sufficiently honest to admit it. I would be quite content to go to their children's bar mitzvahs, to marvel at their Gothic cathedrals, to "respect" their belief that the Koran was dictated, though exclusively in Arabic, to an illiterate merchant, or to interest myself in Wicca and Hindu and Jain consolations. And as it happens, I will continue to do this without insisting on the polite reciprocal condition—which is that they in turn leave me alone. But this, religion is ultimately incapable of doing. As I write these words, and as you read them, people of faith are in their different ways planning your and my destruction, and the destruction of all the hard-won human attainments that I have touched upon. Religion poisons everything.
Syne Wrote:So men are responsible for both initiating romantic relationships AND friendships? So you still expect them to treat you like a love interest, even in an equal friendship? You want to be wooed into a friendship? O_o
That's just irrational.
Men and women just don't tend to have the kind of common interests that organically lead to friendship, the way same-sex friendships do. Attraction bridges that gap.
No, of course not, but like you said, attraction bridges the gap. If that’s the case then you’re not going to be friends with a woman that you’re not attracted to.
(Jun 24, 2018 10:48 PM)confused2 Wrote:
SS Wrote:Friendship is mutual valuing. If C2 is right, and we’re valued for sex over our personalities…then this is a problem.
It's the elephant in the room. Is it the elephant in the room? I'm married and my only friends are birds so I'm not in a position to check this out. Last night 'our' chicks fell off the sloping roof onto our flat roof (an 8 foot drop). Both seem fine. Their first night away from the nest (there is no way back - they can't fly). I've made a bit of a nest for them out of an old sheet.
Where were we?
Syne was just saying that he’s not a sexist. He has lots of female friends that he’d like to fuck.
Thanks for your honesty, C2. I appreciate it.
My neighbor is home for the summer. He called. I didn't answer the phone. He came over. I didn't answer the door.
(Aug 6, 2017 05:30 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: You’d know that if you read the bible as much as you claim to..
I’ll tell you what, let’s walk back to the bathroom, and I’ll dip my fingers in the toilet water, flick some in your face, and we’ll see how you like it.
I didn’t think I was going to get another invite after that remark, but they know that I love to hike, and suggested that I go for a walk with them. You know that they’re just wanting their little dose of helper’s high, which is fine by me, but it is starting to hurt my feelings a little bit.
Yet you apparently accept such invitations...seemingly only so you can continue to feel aggrieved...or you're just lonely enough to put up with behavior you obviously find insulting (whether it is or not).
Quote:
Syne Wrote:And try to tell them how to think (i.e. change them, rather than accept who they are):
Nope. Just the opposite, in fact.
(Aug 13, 2017 07:05 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: "I don’t like when you bring up your religion, when you know full well that I am an atheist. It makes me feel like you think you’re superior and it’s arrogant."
You obviously did want to guilt them into not expressing their views (while you obviously and hypocritically don't give a crap how what you say affects them), and just because you have an inferiority complex about some perceived superiority or arrogance. Either don't hang out with them or get over yourself and your triggered sensitivities. Don't be an ass and guilt them into not expressing themselves. Your sensitivities are your problem, not theirs. Take responsibility for what you can...yourself.
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Syne Wrote:So men are responsible for both initiating romantic relationships AND friendships? So you still expect them to treat you like a love interest, even in an equal friendship? You want to be wooed into a friendship? O_o
That's just irrational.
Men and women just don't tend to have the kind of common interests that organically lead to friendship, the way same-sex friendships do. Attraction bridges that gap.
No, of course not, but like you said, attraction bridges the gap. If that’s the case then you’re not going to be friends with a woman that you’re not attracted to.
Uh, woman are capable of initiating friendships, deary. They're not without agency of their own and helpless to engage people they like or find interesting. If you lack the will to assert yourself, that's a personal problem...not a problem with men. For men, attraction bridges the gap in shared interests. If you think you share enough interests with a guy to be friends, you need to proactively let him know. Men aren't psychic.
And people in general have busy lives, where they have to prioritize the efforts they put into others. If you're a high maintenance friend that requires a lot of initiative on the part of others while providing little value, you're going to fall low on their list of priorities.
Quote:
(Jun 24, 2018 10:48 PM)confused2 Wrote:
SS Wrote:Friendship is mutual valuing. If C2 is right, and we’re valued for sex over our personalities…then this is a problem.
It's the elephant in the room. Is it the elephant in the room? I'm married and my only friends are birds so I'm not in a position to check this out. Last night 'our' chicks fell off the sloping roof onto our flat roof (an 8 foot drop). Both seem fine. Their first night away from the nest (there is no way back - they can't fly). I've made a bit of a nest for them out of an old sheet.
Where were we?
Syne was just saying that he’s not a sexist. He has lots of female friends that he’d like to fuck.
Thanks for your honesty, C2. I appreciate it.
My neighbor is home for the summer. He called. I didn't answer the phone. He came over. I didn't answer the door.
I don't have any female friends for several reasons.
1. Few women share many of my interests.
2. Few people in general are highly intelligent (which is why intelligent people tend to have fewer friends of either gender).
3. The women who are intelligent and may share my interests are shy/unassertive, requiring an effort on my part that I reserve for romantic interests, or that I would feel guilty for stringing along while knowing they are attracted to me but I can't reciprocate.
I would be happy to have a female friend who took the initiative and didn't make me feel guilty about not wanting more. IME, that's nonexistent.
And the last thing I would do is be friends just to pine away for a woman. You'd have to be sorely lacking on self-respect to do that.
I think we do often overthink, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Thinking that is no longer solving a problem becomes reflection or contemplation, which is a pursuit worthy in itself in that it imparts understanding. And living with understanding as opposed to not understanding, as Socrates points out, makes life worth living.
Jun 22, 2018 05:08 PM
(This post was last modified: Jun 22, 2018 05:12 PM by Secular Sanity.)
