Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

(Dec 20, 2021 01:37 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]

(Dec 20, 2021 12:54 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]Everyone has their own interpretations of Nietzsche’s quote, "Whoever battles monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster himself. And when you look long into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you," but my own interpretation is that when you’re creating your own values, you should be careful to not superimpose them onto others, lest you become a monster yourself.

It’s a tricky little thing, and difficult to do, but I try.

That Nietzsche quote is about excusing any means of fighting evil, thereby using evil means and becoming evil yourself. And the abyss is inside everyone, looking into it is looking into yourself.

Trying not to superimpose your values on others is literally letting others "set your standards." Humans cannot hold others to lesser standards without doing so for themselves as well. You seem to be conflating "superimposing" and "imposing" your values on others. The former is simply applying the same standard, and the latter is enforcing it. Enforcement is what the law is for, not for individuals to enact.

No. I wasn’t conflating the two. I meant what I said, superimposed. My image of a good life—how to live.

Have a good one, little guy.

(Dec 20, 2021 01:52 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:That Nietzsche quote is about excusing any means of fighting evil, thereby using evil means and becoming evil yourself. And the abyss is inside everyone, looking into it is looking into yourself.

Trying not to superimpose your values on others is literally letting others "set your standards." Humans cannot hold others to lesser standards without doing so for themselves as well. You seem to be conflating "superimposing" and "imposing" your values on others. The former is simply applying the same standard, and the latter is enforcing it. Enforcement is what the law is for, not for individuals to enact.

No. I wasn’t conflating the two. I meant what I said, superimposed. My image of a good life—how to live.

So what's so wrong with your idea of "a good life" that shouldn't be applied to others? See, you have to believe it is lacking if it can't be applied generally.

(Dec 20, 2021 02:12 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]

(Dec 20, 2021 01:52 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:That Nietzsche quote is about excusing any means of fighting evil, thereby using evil means and becoming evil yourself. And the abyss is inside everyone, looking into it is looking into yourself.

Trying not to superimpose your values on others is literally letting others "set your standards." Humans cannot hold others to lesser standards without doing so for themselves as well. You seem to be conflating "superimposing" and "imposing" your values on others. The former is simply applying the same standard, and the latter is enforcing it. Enforcement is what the law is for, not for individuals to enact.

No. I wasn’t conflating the two. I meant what I said, superimposed. My image of a good life—how to live.

So what's so wrong with your idea of "a good life" that shouldn't be applied to others? See, you have to believe it is lacking if it can't be applied generally.

My heterosexuality is a good example. My atheism is another.

Yeah, you too, SS. Have a good one.

(Dec 20, 2021 02:30 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, you too, SS. Have a good one. 

Safe travels, SS. Happy Caribbean post-holidays. (EDIT: Forgot that "after").

A long and slow response to:
"Whoever battles monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster himself. And when you look long into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you,"

Years ago we owned an empty property which was being vandalised. We employed a private security company to patrol the area with guard dogs. I went for the dogs because I didn't want any drunks thinking they'd try their chances with a lone security guard. The dogs were big german shepherd dogs trained to sit, stand easy, bark, kill .. and they looked the part. I have to say the men (all ex military) looked like they were trained to do pretty much the same.

After a year or so I pointed out that the security firm were costing more than routine vandalism. Mrs C2 came back with something along the lines of "We are making a stand - I don't care about the cost.".

If Americans think defending a property should be left to 17-year-old Shitforbrains with a rifle and you don't have army veterans with (maybe) wounds and disfigurements that rule them out from normal employment after they actually fought for the very freedom of you guys being able to walk the streets safely at night then maybe you're missing the point of what Mrs C2 was saying.

Some years ago, after I told this story, an internet entity (Derek1184), a witty and wise police officer quoted (possibly Orwell):
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

(Dec 20, 2021 02:30 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]

(Dec 20, 2021 02:12 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]So what's so wrong with your idea of "a good life" that shouldn't be applied to others? See, you have to believe it is lacking if it can't be applied generally.

My heterosexuality is a good example. My atheism is another.

Again, what's wrong with those? Don't you believe that your heterosexuality is natural? Or that you have good reason to be an atheist?
You see, superimposing your values doesn't require you to impose them on others. Do you believe that theists are wrong? If so, that's you superimposing your values. Do you believe that homosexuality is natural? Again, that's you superimposing your own values.

Unless, of course, you are completely agnostic on orientation and belief in god.

Quote:Yeah, you too, SS. Have a good one. 

(Dec 20, 2021 01:52 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]Have a good one, little guy.

You too, cow.

(Dec 20, 2021 03:18 AM)confused2 Wrote: [ -> ]After a year or so I pointed out that the security firm were costing more than routine vandalism. Mrs C2 came back with something along the lines of "We are making a stand - I don't care about the cost.".

If Americans think defending a property should be left to 17-year-old Shitforbrains with a rifle and you don't have army veterans with (maybe) wounds and disfigurements that rule them out from normal employment after they actually fought for the very freedom of you guys being able to walk the streets safely at night then maybe you're missing the point of what Mrs C2 was saying.

Some years ago, after I told this story,  an internet entity (Derek1184), a  witty and wise police officer quoted (possibly Orwell):
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

No one paid Rittenhouse, and the car lot owners denied asking them to protect their property. He was already there, during the day, volunteering to clean graffiti and later trying to provide first aid. Knowing it was a potentially dangerous environment, he took responsibility for his own safety. Rittenhouse and his friends were also accompanied by several older men, also armed.

Coward leftists only attacked Kyle because he got separated from his group, and they saw him as an easy target. Two of them died from being cowardly bullies.

(Dec 20, 2021 03:34 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]

(Dec 20, 2021 02:30 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]

(Dec 20, 2021 02:12 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]So what's so wrong with your idea of "a good life" that shouldn't be applied to others? See, you have to believe it is lacking if it can't be applied generally.

My heterosexuality is a good example. My atheism is another.

Again, what's wrong with those? Don't you believe that your heterosexuality is natural? Or that you have good reason to be an atheist?
You see, superimposing your values doesn't require you to impose them on others. Do you believe that theists are wrong? If so, that's you superimposing your values. Do you believe that homosexuality is natural? Again, that's you superimposing your own values.

Unless, of course, you are completely agnostic on orientation and belief in god.

Quote:Yeah, you too, SS. Have a good one. 

(Dec 20, 2021 01:52 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]Have a good one, little guy.

You too, cow.

If there’s no puppeteer, as CC said, you can cut the strings. You can choose what your values dictate. You can decide what really matters to you. Values aren’t goals though. You can’t complete values. It’s an ongoing commitment.

As for anxiety, there is something to what Jeff Bridges said, if things didn’t matter to you, you wouldn’t feel anxious. If we reduced all the anxiety in mice, they would be eaten. It doesn’t mean that we can’t take something to reduce the anxiety, if it allows you to live the life you want without experiential avoidance. We all have unavoidable pain and discomfort but if we stifle these intense negative emotions, we don’t get the same intensity for the happy ones.

You don’t find the sweet spots in the big house, car, job, and it’s usually not even within the big moments. It’s usually found in some seemingly insignificant moment through a connection with humans, animals, or nature. So, in that sense even Jeff Bridges remark about going out and getting drunk with friends [that’s where the best shit comes from, man] was on point.

What happen to immortal cow? At least that one was creative.

In Nietzsche’s Motely Cow town, there’s a tightrope walker that’s making cautious moves between two towers. The jester is impatient and urging the tightrope walker to hurry along. “What business have you here between the towers? You should be lock away in the tower because you block the way for the one who is better than you.” The tightrope walker fell, and he said that he thought the devil would eventually trip him up and drag him off to hell. Zarathustra assured him that there was no devil and no hell, but then he realized that it was he, who was between two towers—a fool and a corpse.

The jester snuck up on him and whispered that he should leave. Too many here hate you. The good and just hate you and think you’re their enemy. The believers hate you and think you’re a danger to the multitude.

Look at the faithful. Whom do they hate the most? The ones who break their tablets of values, but he is the creative one. Fellow creative ones are who he seeks.

He hoisted the corpse on his back and started on his way. He eventually realizes that he needs living companions who will follow him. Hence, because they want to follow themselves.

Happy holidays, little guy Syne.

(Dec 20, 2021 06:02 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]

(Dec 20, 2021 03:34 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]

(Dec 20, 2021 02:30 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]My heterosexuality is a good example. My atheism is another.

Again, what's wrong with those? Don't you believe that your heterosexuality is natural? Or that you have good reason to be an atheist?
You see, superimposing your values doesn't require you to impose them on others. Do you believe that theists are wrong? If so, that's you superimposing your values. Do you believe that homosexuality is natural? Again, that's you superimposing your own values.

Unless, of course, you are completely agnostic on orientation and belief in god.

If there’s no puppeteer, as CC said, you can cut the strings. You can choose what your values dictate. You can decide what really matters to you. Values aren’t goals though. You can’t complete values. It’s an ongoing commitment.

Who said values were goals? That seems like another of your complete non sequiturs to avoid answering what should be very simple questions about your values. How are there any strings attached to me deciding my own values and considering them good enough to apply to everyone (even aside from the human psychology to do that anyway)? Are you laboring under the false assumption that all my values derive from some scripture?

Quote:As for anxiety, there is something to what Jeff Bridges said, if things didn’t matter to you, you wouldn’t feel anxious. If we reduced all the anxiety in mice, they would be eaten. It doesn’t mean that we can’t take something to reduce the anxiety, if it allows you to live the life you want without experiential avoidance. We all have unavoidable pain and discomfort but if we stifle these intense negative emotions, we don’t get the same intensity for the happy ones.

Why are you talking about treating run-of-the-mill anxiety? You know, aside from the clear distraction it's meant to be. If you reduce survival-related anxiety, you reduce survival. I assume such drastic measures as a brain implant would only be suggested for anxiety disorders.

Quote:Happy holidays, little guy Syne.

Happy holidays, moron cunt SS.

The strike out makes it all alright, right?

(Dec 20, 2021 09:04 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Happy holidays, little guy Syne.

Happy holidays, moron cunt SS.

The strike out makes it all alright, right?

No. It was a correction.