Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

Quote:A strong belief in free will allows one to take responsibility for, and thus change, their thinking habits.

Sartre says we are all completely free. He even goes to the extreme of saying we are responsible for every situation of our lives. It's a radical concept that I can't go along with. There are circumstances that are sometimes beyond our control. There are some things we just have to learn to accept.

(Dec 14, 2021 08:45 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]Sartre says we are all completely free. He even goes to the extreme of saying we are responsible for every situation of our lives. It's a radical concept that I can't go along with. There are circumstances that are sometimes beyond our control. There are some things we just have to learn to accept.

Within our capabilities, I feel that we're free to do whatever we want, too.

It's just that I care about most of the "kamikaze" consequences. (As a limiting aspect of reasoning withing the framework of my particular identity -- rather than, say, just making random decisions and not caring about what results.)

(Dec 14, 2021 07:24 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]You could continue that argument all the way down to every car accident. My situation was fortunate because there were openings that I was able to maneuver through. If there wasn’t then by your account, I’d be guilty.

What would you be guilty of? Were you grossly negligent of safety measures you'd been trained in?

Quote:Why was traffic at a standstill? Was it due to a roadway engineering design flaw? Why did the trucking company allow someone without enough experience to take a mountainous route? Were the brakes checked and serviced by the trucking company? His English was limited. Could he even read the runaway ramp sign? If not, why did the DMV allow him to obtain a commercial driver’s license?

See, for those who do not believe in free will, the desire to shift blame knows no bounds.
It doesn't matter that there was a traffic jam, as he had at least two other opportunities before getting there. You do realize that he drove 6 miles without brakes, right? From exit 254, where he was first reported speeding, to exit 263, where he was videoed speeding by a guy stopped in traffic, shortly before the crash.
https://en.everybodywiki.com/2019_Lakewo...ruck_crash
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.70443...765,13.52z

Yes, the trucking company, that received 30 safety violations in the previous 2 years and some for inability to read English road signs, has some responsibility and liability, but just because some other person or entity shares culpability doesn't absolve the individual of their own, personal actions.
The truck could have been in 100% operating condition and still have the breaks fail due to driver error:

Over-braking - In some instances, drivers brake for too long of a period, which can cause a failure of the braking system. This primarily occurs on long down-hill grades. Excessive heat results if the manual brakes are depressed for too long, which often happens to less experienced drivers who fail to engage the truck’s other braking systems.
https://www.nelsonmacneil.com/blog/what-...akes-fail/

The truck was also reported to be smoking as he passed the runaway truck ramp, which would have been from overheated brakes.

Again, if the DMV failed to adequately test for the federal CDL requirement to understand traffic signs in English, that doesn't absolve the individual from their own actions. 6 miles and over 3 minutes to do anything but plow into a bunch of innocent and unsuspecting motorists. Neither the DMV nor the trucking company was in the cab with him.

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(Dec 14, 2021 08:45 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:A strong belief in free will allows one to take responsibility for, and thus change, their thinking habits.

Sartre says we are all completely free. He even goes to the extreme of saying we are responsible for every situation of our lives. It's a radical concept that I can't go along with. There are circumstances that are sometimes beyond our control. There are some things we just have to learn to accept.

Very little is completely beyond our control. Our own outlook draws many of our hardships into our lives. But that can only be real for you if you believe you can exercise genuine free will. Not only of your actions, but also of your own outlook, mood, and thinking.

Staying with Rogel Aguilera-Mederos killing four people with his truck.
Jake brakes (no muffler?)

Fishing around suggests his truck would probably have had 'jake brakes' which would almost certainly have brought the truck to a (near) standstill. One of the few states with statutes relating to jake brakes turns out to be Colorado (where the accident happened).  If his truck had jake braking and he was told not to use it or (worse) not even taught how to use it this would be an extra factor causing panic and confusion and maybe contributed to turning a ticket for noise or embarrassment at being stuck in one of the runaway ramps into a tragedy.

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What happens when you use a truck runaway ram..
Probable ticket for losing control of your vehicle.
Minimum $2,500 to get the truck out again.
Possibly fired.
Panic, confusion and no good options leads to  bad decisions.

I've never driven a semi (just large automatic transmission cargo trucks), but I've driven manual transmissions most my life and I'm well-versed in down shifting. Sometimes I even practice stopping without brakes (or even up/down shifting without a clutch) in my car. That's the responsibility I take in knowing how to control the vehicles I drive.

(Dec 14, 2021 09:47 PM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]Within our capabilities, I feel that we're free to do whatever we want, too.

It's just that I care about most of the "kamikaze" consequences. (As a limiting aspect of reasoning withing the framework of my particular identity -- rather than, say, just making random decisions and not caring about what results.)

I feel that I don't have the choice to not care. It's just part of who I am. Something could happen that could cause me not to care though, e.g., brain damage, disease, etc.

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(Dec 14, 2021 10:19 PM)confused2 Wrote: [ -> ]Panic, confusion and no good options leads to bad decisions.

Hear-hear!

In this case, retributive justice just increased the amount of suffering.

There's a runaway truck drivers dilemma where you either head for the back of a trailer (a wall) and almost certain death or carry on hoping nothing bad will happen. You have 3 seconds to decide.

(Dec 15, 2021 01:29 AM)confused2 Wrote: [ -> ]There's a runaway truck drivers dilemma where you either head for the back of a trailer (a wall)  and almost certain death or carry on hoping nothing bad will happen. You have 3 seconds to decide.

Is that a dilemma or survival instinct?

Apparently, the judge didn't have free will either.

(Dec 15, 2021 12:39 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]

(Dec 14, 2021 10:19 PM)confused2 Wrote: [ -> ]Panic, confusion and no good options leads to bad decisions.

Hear-hear!

In this case, retributive justice just increased the amount of suffering.

The good option is not to put others at risk from your own gross negligence, like driving a deadly weapon without understanding the limit of the brakes, runaway ramps, engine braking, etc.. Making excuses for negligence just fosters more negligence.

(Dec 15, 2021 01:48 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]

(Dec 15, 2021 01:29 AM)confused2 Wrote: [ -> ]There's a runaway truck drivers dilemma where you either head for the back of a trailer (a wall)  and almost certain death or carry on hoping nothing bad will happen. You have 3 seconds to decide.

Is that a dilemma or survival instinct?

Apparently, the judge didn't have free will either.

Not 3 seconds, over 3 minutes and 6 miles down the road. Man, the lengths people will go to in order to excuse gross negligence...likely motivated by a desire for mutual absolution, which is at the heart of denying free will and personal accountability.

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And why do so many people seem completely callous to the friends and families of the innocent victims to this gross negligence?
Is it just because you don't have a video to watch of them crying?

My father’s death was due to the negligence of a physician. I made sure that everyone in charge was aware of it. I didn’t sue, much less think that he deserved to be sentenced to prison. Mistakes and accidents happen.

Having a belief in determinism increases your determination to do better. We can’t use the excuses that free will affords.

"Of these "inward facts" that seem to demonstrate causality, the primary and most persuasive one is that of the will as cause." —Nietzsche