Young Earth Creationism & the minute universe (Saints & Simulators)

#11
(Mar 18, 2019 04:36 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Anyways I had another thought. Would not a simulation of the universe have to include the simulator. I mean the simulator would have to show up at some point in the simulation, no?

Again, it's like a video game...or even more simply, a board game. You wouldn't expect the game creator to be in the game world. Aside from branding or credits, you don't expect to find the Parker Brothers in the game Chutes and Ladders (if that's even a correct company and game combo).

This is all basic brain in a vat territory.
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#12
In a brain-in-a-vat scenario I think we generally accept that (for example) all the biblical characters, places and events have no more reality than (say) an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer - any laws of physics are no more than game rules.

In a YEC scenario I think the claim is that everything after (say) 5,000 years ago is 'real' - the laws of physics are (pretty much) 'real'. Carbon dating (say) a tree gives the actual age of the tree. Miracles don't follow the accepted laws of physics and biology which (obviously) is what marks them out as miracles. Having accepted one (or more) miracles there isn't really a good point to draw a line between the real and the miraculous. If the Earth was made in six days then why not have it made complete with dinosours?

Brian in vat is not the same as young earth conspiracy.
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#13
(Mar 19, 2019 06:36 PM)confused2 Wrote: In a brain-in-a-vat scenario I think we generally accept that (for example) all the biblical characters, places and events have no more reality than (say) an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer - any laws of physics are no more than game rules.
That depends. If only one BIV (brain in a vat) is plugged into the simulator, then yes, everyone else is necessarily simulated. But most people assume that, if a reality like our own is simulated, at least most of the people are also BIVs (probably due to theory of mind)...which would include historical figures. And yes, physics would then be akin to game rules/simulated game engine physics.

Quote:In a YEC scenario I think the claim is that everything after (say) 5,000 years ago is 'real' - the laws of physics are (pretty much) 'real'. Carbon dating (say) a tree gives the actual age of the tree. Miracles don't follow the accepted laws of physics and biology which (obviously) is what marks them out as miracles. Having accepted one (or more) miracles there isn't really a good point to draw a line between the real and the miraculous. If the Earth was made in six days then why not have it made complete with dinosours?

Brian in vat is not the same as young earth conspiracy.

YECs, would say things are only created to give the impression of a much greater age and carbon decay, rather than the actual age. "Accepted laws of physics" are only those we've been able to suss out, so there's always a chance that some hitherto unknown laws of reality are at work. Miracles are only extraordinary occurrences with no known explanation. That they occur is no less real than anything else. The only thing lacking is our knowledge of the cause, but that occurs at the boundaries of modern physics too. Just because we do not know the form of dark matter doesn't mean it's not real. We just don't have a full explanation.

Some YECs do think that the Earth was made with dinosaurs, that coexisted with man, citing behemoths and leviathans in the Bible.


No BIV isn't the same as YEC. But if the universe were created to give the impression of much greater age, it was at least created in an initial "in-progress" state, whereas a simulation continually creates "in-progress" states moment to moment. Since both seem to operate on predefined rules, the only real difference is whether it is a simulation or not...which is the crux of the BIV thought experiment. A YEC universe could also be a simulated universe and vice versa. The problem of determining if our universe is either or neither is the exact same problem in both cases.
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#14
Are we brains in vats?
|
|-Yes ->Everything is Fiction -
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|-No -> Is the Bible Fiction?
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#15
(Mar 19, 2019 08:10 PM)confused2 Wrote: Are we brains in vats?
|
|-Yes ->Everything is Fiction -
|
|-No -> Is the Bible Fiction?

If we are BIVs, the world is fiction but the people and what they do (history) is not.
BIV or not, neither tell us whether any given account of history is true.
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#16
Syne Wrote:If we are BIVs, the world is fiction but the people and what they do (history) is not.
I don't think you have understood BIV,
<click> Syne is a caterpillar - always been one - remember your first taste of dandelion leaf? - Of course you do.
<click> Syne is a whore in downtown LA. If 5 dollars is all you're worth then you take 5 dollars.
<click> Syne never existed.Pffutt. Gone.
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#17
(Mar 20, 2019 12:06 AM)confused2 Wrote:
Syne Wrote:If we are BIVs, the world is fiction but the people and what they do (history) is not.
I don't think you have understood BIV,
<click> Syne is a caterpillar - always been one - remember your first taste of dandelion leaf? - Of course you do.
<click> Syne is a whore in downtown LA. If 5 dollars is all you're worth then you take 5 dollars.
<click> Syne never existed.Pffutt. Gone.

No, it seems to be you who is lost.

BIV starts with the presumption that you actually exist, only as a brain in a vat...instead of how you perceive yourself. Just like your actual brain, you'd still have your own memory and sense of identity. BIV does not presume you are a program or simulation yourself.

Let me know if you ever get a grip on brain in a vat.
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#18
I (now) agree the BIV for this discussion is not a program. The fact remains that what it sees through its eyes has no physical existence. The BIV is bound to accept the evidence presented to it and the evidence could be conclusive proof of (say) the existence of Noah's ark and yet there would be no Noah and no ark. The BIV's universe has no reality beyond what a controlling entity (or program) might choose to present.

If we are not BIV's (despite there being no way to determine this) we can resolve true or false without the whim of a controlling entity entering into the equation.
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#19
No. Again, only the environment is simulated, while people and what they do is quite real. The timber to build the Ark might have been simulated, but Noah undertaking the task is a real decision made by his brain in a vat. If you presume that Noah was simulated, then you must also presume that every other human is also simulated...and you're the only real brain operating in the simulation. Then you run into the added problems introduced by solipsism.

If the universe operated by whim, we could not have figured out as much about it as we have.
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