When does life begin?

[Secular Sanity]

There is no debate, and 100% consensus, on the scientific view of when life begins. Anyone that tells you otherwise doesn't understand science or has an intentionally dishonest agenda.

How do you feel about the frozen embryos that are discarded?

They can be frozen before the second or third day, before the separate DNA contributions form an new, unique DNA.

An embryo can be frozen during several stages of its development: from the day of fertilization, when they are an only cell1, to five or six days later in their blastocyst stage2, when they are the same size but with more cells within. During their first seven days alive, they grow within the external membrane of the oocyte, exactly like a chick in an egg shell… Remember an egg is a chicken’s oocyte! The moment in which the cells break the membrane is known as the hatching of the blastocyst3, they come out and implant immediately in the inner layer of the uterus. Thus, they can be frozen up until that moment.
- http://www.fertility-experiences.com/fro...they-live/

Considering frozen embryos are fertilized (which takes only 16-20 hours) in the lab, this is not a problem.

Is that where you draw the line in sand, cell division?

I don't get it. A zygote is a single cell with 46 chromosomes. How is that not genetically unique? It produces proteins and enzymes and has everything that it needs to develop. It has potential.

[confused2]

How is that not genetically unique?

Given that the current mass of humanity is about 150 million tons is it possible we might already have most bases covered?

[Syne]

How do you feel about the frozen embryos that are discarded?

They can be frozen before the second or third day, before the separate DNA contributions form an new, unique DNA.

An embryo can be frozen during several stages of its development: from the day of fertilization, when they are an only cell1, to five or six days later in their blastocyst stage2, when they are the same size but with more cells within. During their first seven days alive, they grow within the external membrane of the oocyte, exactly like a chick in an egg shell… Remember an egg is a chicken’s oocyte! The moment in which the cells break the membrane is known as the hatching of the blastocyst3, they come out and implant immediately in the inner layer of the uterus. Thus, they can be frozen up until that moment.
- http://www.fertility-experiences.com/fro...they-live/

Considering frozen embryos are fertilized (which takes only 16-20 hours) in the lab, this is not a problem.

Is that where you draw the line in sand, cell division?

I don't get it. A zygote is a single cell with 46 chromosomes. How is that not genetically unique? It produces proteins and enzymes and has everything that it needs to develop. It has potential.

It's a definite line defined by science. Everything else is arbitrary.

A zygote actually contains 46 pairs of chromosomes...twice the number of a human organism. These are not unique from the individual contributions of the parents. Where does science define "potential life" and what bearing does that have on murder being the intentional taking of human life (which doesn't recognize "potential life")? O_o

[Secular Sanity]

Is that where you draw the line in sand, cell division?

I don't get it. A zygote is a single cell with 46 chromosomes. How is that not genetically unique? It produces proteins and enzymes and has everything that it needs to develop. It has potential.

It's a definite line defined by science. Everything else is arbitrary.

A zygote actually contains 46 pairs of chromosomes...twice the number of a human organism. These are not unique from the individual contributions of the parents. Where does science define "potential life" and what bearing does that have on murder being the intentional taking of human life (which doesn't recognize "potential life")? O_o

Wait. What?

It has its unique DNA. It has the 46 pairs of chromosomes that makes up a human being.

Are you okay with discarded frozen zygotes and embryos then? You don't consider that murder?

[Syne]

A zygote actually contains 46 pairs of chromosomes...twice the number of a human organism. These are not unique from the individual contributions of the parents. Where does science define "potential life" and what bearing does that have on murder being the intentional taking of human life (which doesn't recognize "potential life")? O_o

Wait. What?

It has its unique DNA. It has the 46 pairs of chromosomes that makes up a human being.

Are you okay with discarded frozen zygotes and embryos then? You don't consider that murder?

No, 46 pairs of chromosomes are two duplicates of 23 pairs from each parent, not unique to the zygote. The zygote doesn't yet have its own DNA, unique from those two contributing organisms. Zygotes and embryos are not the same thing.

[Secular Sanity]

No, 46 pairs of chromosomes are two duplicates of 23 pairs from each parent, not unique to the zygote. The zygote doesn't yet have its own DNA, unique from those two contributing organisms. Zygotes and embryos are not the same thing.  

The zygote has all the DNA that it needs. So, you draw the line at mitosis, right? If a woman froze several embryos, used one, and discarded the rest, would consider that murder? How do you feel about embryonic stem cell research?

[Syne]

No, 46 pairs of chromosomes are two duplicates of 23 pairs from each parent, not unique to the zygote. The zygote doesn't yet have its own DNA, unique from those two contributing organisms. Zygotes and embryos are not the same thing.  

The zygote has all the DNA that it needs. So, you draw the line at mitosis, right? If a woman froze several embryos, used one, and discarded the rest, would consider that murder? How do you feel about embryonic stem cell research?

No, deary, having "all the DNA it needs" is "potential life", not a scientific term and not a definition of human life. That DNA has not combined to form the organism's own DNA, unique from that of its contributors. As I cited earlier, "An embryo can be frozen during several stages of its development: from the day of fertilization, when they are an only cell", when there is no ethical dilemma.

And since we can extract somatic (adult) stem cells without any ethical concerns whatsoever, it's a no-brainer.

Also known as somatic stem cells, they can be found in children, as well as adults.

Research into adult stem cells has been fueled by their abilities to divide or self-renew indefinitely and generate all the cell types of the organ from which they originate — potentially regenerating the entire organ from a few cells.

Unlike embryonic stem cells, the use of adult stem cells in research and therapy is not controversial because the production of adult stem cells does not require the destruction of an embryo.

Adult stem cells can be isolated from a tissue sample obtained from an adult.
- https://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/adult_stem_cell.htm

[Secular Sanity]

No, deary, having "all the DNA it needs" is "potential life", not a scientific term and not a definition of human life. That DNA has not combined to form the organism's own DNA, unique from that of its contributors. As I cited earlier, "An embryo can be frozen during several stages of its development: from the day of fertilization, when they are an only cell", when there is no ethical dilemma.

Before mitosis occurs, the cell makes proteins, copies of organelles, and produces the molecular building blocks. It also synthesizes a complete copy of the DNA in the nucleus.

Do you draw the line at a specific phase during mitosis, e.g., the anaphase?

You sort of danced around the question. There are close to a million, not zygotes (unicellular), but frozen embryos (multicellular) in the U.S. alone. Hundreds of thousands will be destroyed. Do you consider this murder?

[Syne]

No, deary, having "all the DNA it needs" is "potential life", not a scientific term and not a definition of human life. That DNA has not combined to form the organism's own DNA, unique from that of its contributors. As I cited earlier, "An embryo can be frozen during several stages of its development: from the day of fertilization, when they are an only cell", when there is no ethical dilemma.

Before mitosis occurs, the cell makes proteins, copies of organelles, and produces the molecular building blocks. It also synthesizes a complete copy of the DNA in the nucleus.

Do you draw the line at a specific phase during mitosis, e.g., the anaphase?

You sort of danced around the question. There are close to a million, not zygotes (unicellular), but frozen embryos (multicellular) in the U.S. alone. Hundreds of thousands will be destroyed. Do you consider this murder?

Proteins, organelles, and molecular building blocks are not, themselves, human life. And copies of parent DNA are not a new, unique DNA.

Didn't dance around anything. You asked, "If a woman froze several embryos, used one, and discarded the rest, would consider that murder?" I told you how it wouldn't be. You should have been able to suss out the rest for yourself. Many ethical women/couples willingly pay to keep frozen embryos stored indefinitely or try to donate them to infertile couples. And some even have them implanted when pregnancy is unlikely, so they die naturally, or even have all of them implanted at once, like Octomom. https://www.parenting.com/article/the-fa...en-embryos IOW, there are ethical options.

[Secular Sanity]

No, deary, having "all the DNA it needs" is "potential life", not a scientific term and not a definition of human life. That DNA has not combined to form the organism's own DNA, unique from that of its contributors. As I cited earlier, "An embryo can be frozen during several stages of its development: from the day of fertilization, when they are an only cell", when there is no ethical dilemma.

Before mitosis occurs, the cell makes proteins, copies of organelles, and produces the molecular building blocks. It also synthesizes a complete copy of the DNA in the nucleus.

Do you draw the line at a specific phase during mitosis, e.g., the anaphase?

You sort of danced around the question. There are close to a million, not zygotes (unicellular), but frozen embryos (multicellular) in the U.S. alone. Hundreds of thousands will be destroyed. Do you consider this murder?

Proteins, organelles, and molecular building blocks are not, themselves, human life. And copies of parent DNA are not a new, unique DNA.

Didn't dance around anything. You asked, "If a woman froze several embryos, used one, and discarded the rest, would consider that murder?" I told you how it wouldn't be. You should have been able to suss out the rest for yourself. Many ethical women/couples willingly pay to keep frozen embryos stored indefinitely or try to donate them to infertile couples. And some even have them implanted when pregnancy is unlikely, so they die naturally, or even have all of them implanted at once, like Octomom. https://www.parenting.com/article/the-fa...en-embryos IOW, there are ethical options.

If you’re using the "unique genetic" argument then I think life begins at conception.

"The single-celled embryo is a very different kind of cell than that of sperm or oocyte, and contains a unique genome that will determine most future bodily features and functions of his or her lifetime.

It is clear that from the time of cell fusion, the embryo consists of elements (from both maternal and paternal origin) which function interdependently in a coordinated manner to carry on the function of the development of the human organism.  From this definition, the single-celled embryo is not just a cell, but an organism, a living being, a human being."

The American College of Pediatricians concurs with the body of scientific evidence that corroborates that a unique human life starts when the sperm and egg bind to each other in a process of fusion of their respective membranes and a single hybrid cell called a zygote, or one-cell embryo, is created.


https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speak...ife-begins