Let me Count the Ways

#1
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pre...adaptation

Talking again around campfire when a skunk happened to saunter by. We started throwing around different adaptations prey animals have evolved over millions of years. There seems to be many adaptations that avoid predation but I posed the question as to how many prey organisms , plant or animal, actually try to kill their predator? It's more like "don't eat me, eat those others species over there. "

We thought that some plants can kill a predator with poison but we didn't think that all predators of that plant would be affected. Then someone suggested that some prey may facilitate the death of a predator through a 3rd party. The subject at the time was about plants that either temporarily or completely immobilize a predator for another hunter to possibly take advantage of. 

Now I'm not a marijuana user but we were wondering if an early human in the wild for instance, was to chew on the leaves and become incapacitated or unable to defend, would they be more susceptible to predation? Not sure of marijuana's effects on other creatures but there are plants out there that can intoxicate their consumer. The thought was that some plants can indirectly lower the guard of a predator and make them susceptible to a 3rd party hunter.
Reply
#2
(Aug 10, 2018 07:10 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pre...adaptation

Talking again around campfire when a skunk happened to saunter by. We started throwing around different adaptations prey animals have evolved over millions of years. There seems to be many adaptations that avoid predation but I posed the question as to how many prey organisms , plant or animal, actually try to kill their predator? It's more like "don't eat me, eat those others species over there. "

We thought that some plants can kill a predator with poison but we didn't think that all predators of that plant would be affected. Then someone suggested that some prey may facilitate the death of a predator through a 3rd party. The subject at the time was about plants that either temporarily or completely immobilize a predator for another hunter to possibly take advantage of. 

Now I'm not a marijuana user but we were wondering if an early human in the wild for instance, was to chew on the leaves and become incapacitated or unable to defend, would they be more susceptible to predation? Not sure of marijuana's effects on other creatures but there are plants out there that can intoxicate their consumer. The thought was that some plants can indirectly lower the guard of a predator and make them susceptible to a 3rd party hunter.

excellent question.
i think there are 2 probable branches to this from my humble perception
1 genetic knowledge
2 behavioural association of applied situational practice

fear by its nature to dictate darwinian process is purely mathamatical ... kind-of e.g  there must be a simple cause and effect as you mention above.
lower perception of predators = less survival/breeding

secondly behavioural
being able to align with the primary predator being humans in practices that facilitate survival might include those requiring the need to participate in the drug use to survive not being predated on by other humans.
this would be a behavioural genetic process

soo
2 potential genetic options
1 less is more breeding for awareness
2 being able to participate in the tollerance of the drug resulting in better breeding survival
thus RE #2 a large group of stoned cavemen is highly likely to survive wild predators

so i think it would be hard to calculate the sway between the 2 given breeding is by genetics not behaviours.
the weakest may still have been able to mate 1st with the female while the strongest was away butchering the neighbouring village
Reply
#3
Maybe on par with those that puff:

The Pufferfish (Blowfish) seems pretty adept at upsetting it's predation.  Sometimes it might survive, something though unfortunately not.

https://www.livescience.com/61078-shark-...-fish.html

It's got a mixture of the ability to puff up many times it's own size to make it bigger than predators mouths, the potential of being spiney and extremely poisonous.  (And expensive to eat in a Sushi bar along with the lingering threat of death through poisoning which is bound it invalidate peoples insurance plans.)

There are then those species that mimic (wikipedia.org) being prey (a proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing)

As for chewing the wrong plant. The following is speculative but considers the nature of social structuring and tribal methodology.

It's likely that early man had specific "Herbal Specialists" (Witches, religious retainers etc) who likely went out and found new plants to try. They would likely return the new specimen to try to their camp or home, that way if they became ill they could attempt to rest up (They'd likely have someone training to be like them on standby if they became incapacitated). It's possible that they'd likely found concoctions prior that made them vomit, so they'd have that on standby should they know whatever they just tried needs to come up.

Further to that point such reactive chemicals became part of Rites of passage (wikipedia.org) in some cultures, as such effects would "separate" the individual from the known world, through hallucination effects they "liminality" would require the individual to attempt to rework their understanding of the events (and what they internalise) potentially radically changing their perspective on things and finally "incorporation" being brought back with their new "enlightened" state into the culture that knew their passage was now complete.
Reply
#4
Great responses guys. 

I wonder if the pufferfish is actually out.to kill. The fish itself is lethal but as Stryder mentioned it still gets killed and eaten. Enlarging itself is probably it's first line of defence and I think for most prey it is all about escape. An equine or hooved animal can kick it's way out and just may strike a deadly blow in the process. A snake will lunge, strike and get the hell out of there despite delivering a lethal dose. Any animal left incapacitated by their prey is subject to predation IMHO.

Tried to think of an animal.that kills first without giving prey a chance. I thought of the hippo but then again is it only within the hippo's element that it feels confident enough to hunt down a predator? Mother grizzly doesn't take any chances either if you get between her and cubs. (Cubs being prey in this case). So does protecting the young or the herd turn prey into  killers?

Back to plants. Seems as if poisonous plants still need to have a few sacrifice themselves in order to deliver a message. Not sure if it is a message or the fact that any predator killed by eating the plant just doesn't get to  breed or pass on the information.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)