C CApr 27, 2018 08:24 PM (This post was last modified: Apr 27, 2018 08:29 PM by C C.)
(Apr 26, 2018 08:51 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote:
Altruistic Suicide
Egoistic Suicide
May be difficult to classify ritual suicide when there's only two poles and no gradient spectrum.
While there is a tribal custom, social contract, belief system, or military rule that's being accommodated by the act... It seems a stretch to construe such respect for or obligation to a community as directly helping the latter's good welfare (altruistic). That maintaining the integrity and viability of sanctioned "ceremonial suicide" would reliably and even roundaboutly benefit the larger group.
Though it might be less doubtful when it specifically concerns captured warriors or spies offing themselves to prevent an enemy from gaining information; as opposed to, say, restoring family integrity by atoning for a shame. If there was a complementary version for the other gender, Jauhar might also be pragmatic if it prevents invaders from profiting via slavery and rape (providing them a work force and reproducing their numbers).
Since the person doesn't really desire to die in ritual suicide (if setting aside the influence of the principle which is prescribing them to kill themselves honorably), it doesn't seem a perfect fit for self-centered reasons, either.
At times during normal conversation, people who know me as an evolutionist have asked my opinion re suicide. Out of respect for anyone who has experienced the suicidal death of a loved one, friend, etc. I apologize for what I'm about to say .... Always a chance something completely natural is going on that transcends our feelings on the matter. It is not only very hard to point out but very hard to accept for some. I don't believe all suicides have the same effects but they do affect, creating plenty of collateral damage. Survivors have to deal with it and each of us will handle it in their own way.
Altruistic Suicide, Egoistic Suicide and one more..... as in Stupid Suicide. I remember one particular Darwin Award where these guys bring into a restaurant an unexploded ordnance they had found. While inside they decided to hammer away at it, effectively clearing the room. The patrons and workers managed to escape the place prior to the bomb exploding, killing its finders. The book made no apologies and I understood.
I think egoistic suicide is an unfortunate misnomer, connoting motives of selfishness and personal profit. That's the last thing a suicidal depressed person is thinking about. Dying is about the most non-egoistic act one can perform. And the motive to do it involves the entire loss of a well-defined self--a sort of smearing of one's experience into a meaningless and indifferent malaise. The pain of being alive and having no interest in anything is too great to bear leaving nonexistence the only preferable alternative. The instinctive drive to stop suffering is what dominates here, a desire to escape an enslaving state or mood akin to how a man faced with burning alive in a building will throw himself out the window instead.
(Apr 27, 2018 08:24 PM)C C Wrote: If there was a complementary version for the other gender, Jauhar might also be pragmatic if it prevents invaders from profiting via slavery and rape (providing them a work force and reproducing their numbers).
Woah! I’ve never heard of that or Sati before.
Thanks, C C!
(Apr 27, 2018 10:13 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: I think egoistic suicide is an unfortunate misnomer, connoting motives of selfishness and personal profit. That's the last thing a suicidal depressed person is thinking about. If anything it is the entire loss of a well-defined self--a sort of smearing of one's experience into a meaningless and indifferent malaise--that triggers these last ditch acts. The pain of being alive and having no interest in anything is too great to bear leaving nonexistence the only preferable alternative. The instinctive drive to stop suffering is what dominates here, a desire to escape an enslaving state or mood akin to how a man faced with burning alive in a building will throw himself out the window instead.
Yeah, I tend to agree. There are lots of interesting hypotheses, though.
Psychic pain hypothesis, the behavioral shutdown model, and the rank theory are intriguing.
What do you think about the analytical rumination hypothesis?
Analytical Rumination Hypothesis
There is another possibility: that, in most instances, depression should not be thought of as a disorder at all. In an article recently published in Psychological Review, we argue that depression is in fact an adaptation, a state of mind which brings real costs, but also brings real benefits.
…This is not to say that depression is not a problem. Depressed people often have trouble performing everyday activities, they can’t concentrate on their work, they tend to socially isolate themselves, they are lethargic, and they often lose the ability to take pleasure from such activities such as eating and sex. Some can plunge into severe, lengthy, and even life-threatening bouts of depression.
So what could be so useful about depression? Depressed people often think intensely about their problems. These thoughts are called ruminations; they are persistent and depressed people have difficulty thinking about anything else. Numerous studies have also shown that this thinking style is often highly analytical. They dwell on a complex problem, breaking it down into smaller components, which are considered one at a time.
This analytical style of thought, of course, can be very productive. Each component is not as difficult, so the problem becomes more tractable. Indeed, when you are faced with a difficult problem, such as a math problem, feeling depressed is often a useful response that may help you analyze and solve it. For instance, in some of our research, we have found evidence that people who get more depressed while they are working on complex problems in an intelligence test tend to score higher on the test.
…Analysis requires a lot of uninterrupted thought, and depression coordinates many changes in the body to help people analyze their problems without getting distracted.
…Many other symptoms of depression make sense in light of the idea that analysis must be uninterrupted. The desire for social isolation, for instance, helps the depressed person avoid situations that would require thinking about other things. Similarly, the inability to derive pleasure from sex or other activities prevents the depressed person from engaging in activities that could distract him or her from the problem. Even the loss of appetite often seen in depression could be viewed as promoting analysis because chewing and other oral activity interferes with the brain’s ability to process information.
I disagree with the analytical rumination hypothesis. As Jung once said, if you're depressed your too much up in your head. I agree. Analytic thought is cold and sterile and numbing to the natural life flow of feelings and sensations. It is a state of abstraction and disembodiment out of touch with what is real and important. I think ruminating increases the depressed state in trapping us in our own conscious ideas and language, making us further isolated from our bodies and the natural energies that flow thru it. People who are depressed need to quit thinking and get out and immerse themselves in visceral and vivid experiences. Depression is the unconscious telling us to get grounded again in the physical and the real.
SyneApr 28, 2018 01:10 AM (This post was last modified: Apr 28, 2018 01:10 AM by Syne.)
(Apr 27, 2018 10:13 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: I think egoistic suicide is an unfortunate misnomer, connoting motives of selfishness and personal profit. That's the last thing a suicidal depressed person is thinking about. Dying is about the most non-egoistic act one can perform. And the motive to do it involves the entire loss of a well-defined self--a sort of smearing of one's experience into a meaningless and indifferent malaise. The pain of being alive and having no interest in anything is too great to bear leaving nonexistence the only preferable alternative. The instinctive drive to stop suffering is what dominates here, a desire to escape an enslaving state or mood akin to how a man faced with burning alive in a building will throw himself out the window instead.
I think egoistic is used there as "self-absorbed", where the person suffers from the same rumination you describe below.
(Apr 28, 2018 12:43 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: I disagree with the analytical rumination hypothesis. As Jung once said, if you're depressed your too much up in your head. I agree. Analytic thought is cold and sterile and numbing to the natural life flow of feelings and sensations. It is a state of abstraction and disembodiment out of touch with what is real and important. I think ruminating increases the depressed state in trapping us in our own conscious ideas and language, making us further isolated from our bodies and the natural energies that flow thru it. People who are depressed need to quit thinking and get out and immerse themselves in visceral and vivid experiences. Depression is the unconscious telling us to get grounded again in the physical and the real.
Great post, especially the last sentence.
That's why exercise is a good treatment for depression.
And if you remember, Tolstoy was able to find meaning in manual labor.
[to till the ground from whence he was taken]
In our perverted society in the society called civilized we need, above all things, to speak of manual labor, because the chief fault of our society has been, and up to the present time still is, the striving to rid ourselves of manual labor.
In complete contrast to my ignorance, [they] knew the meaning of life and death, labored quietly, endured deprivations and sufferings, and lived and died seeing therein not vanity but good…
Then occurred what happens to everyone sickening with a mortal internal disease. At first trivial signs of indisposition appear to which the sick man pays no attention; then these signs reappear more and more often and merge into one uninterrupted period of suffering. The suffering increases, and before the sick man can look round, what he took for a mere indisposition has already become more important to him than anything else in the world — it is death!
Today or tomorrow sickness and death will come (they had come already) to those I love or to me; nothing will remain but stench and worms. Sooner or later my affairs, whatever they may be, will be forgotten, and I shall not exist. Then why go on making any effort?
[...]
How can man fail to see this? And how go on living? That is what is surprising! One can only live while one is intoxicated with life; as soon as one is sober it is impossible not to see that it is all a mere fraud and a stupid fraud! That is precisely what it is: there is nothing either amusing or witty about it, it is simply cruel and stupid.
[…]
Had I simply understood that life had no meaning I could have borne it quietly, knowing that that was my lot. But I could not satisfy myself with that. Had I been like a man living in a wood from which he knows there is no exit, I could have lived; but I was like one lost in a wood who, horrified at having lost his way, rushes about wishing to find the road. He knows that each step he takes confuses him more and more, but still he cannot help rushing about. It was indeed terrible. And to rid myself of the terror I wished to kill myself.
[…]
In contrast with what I had seen in our circle, where the whole of life is passed in idleness, amusement, and dissatisfaction, I saw that the whole life of these people was passed in heavy labour, and that they were content with life. In contradistinction to the way in which people of our circle oppose fate and complain of it on account of deprivations and sufferings, these people accepted illness and sorrow without any perplexity or opposition, and with a quiet and firm conviction that all is good. In contradistinction to us, who the wiser we are the less we understand the meaning of life, and see some evil irony in the fact that we suffer and die, these folk live and suffer, and they approach death and suffering with tranquility and in most cases gladly…
In complete contrast to my ignorance, [they] knew the meaning of life and death, labored quietly, endured deprivations and sufferings, and lived and died seeing therein not vanity but good…
(Jun 22, 2017 09:41 AM)confused2 Wrote: ... and so I find endorphins - natures reward for a job well done.
Could that be IT? It kinda looks like it could work for birds, rats, hamsters and me.
C CApr 28, 2018 03:30 PM (This post was last modified: Apr 28, 2018 03:34 PM by C C.)
(Apr 27, 2018 09:05 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: . . . I don't believe all suicides have the same effects but they do affect, creating plenty of collateral damage. Survivors have to deal with it and each of us will handle it in their own way. [...]
Adolf Hitler would be one fringe example of having more negative impact via his life than his suicide. The only people probably emotionally distraught by the latter act were those who wanted to see him go through an official process of being held accountable, climaxed by a Nuremberg execution and photo of him hanging. Even though his sister Angela "spoke very highly of him even after the war", it's still difficult to imagine his relatives privately feeling anything other relief by his departure.
"Deviant for that era" sex practices were attributed to him, including deriving pleasure from women kicking and beating him, as well asking his half-niece Geli Raubal to do things like urinate in his navel while squatting over him frontally nude. (She at least actually did share a house with "Uncle Alf" for two years before finally killing herself.) Historian Ian Kershaw dismissed all such gossip as invented, political anti-Hitler propaganda. And indeed the anecdotes do sound a bit like the kind of cliché habits routinely assigned by today's writers to even the protagonists of their fiction. Hitler was a reluctant heterosexual, having preferred the companionship of males like August Kubizek, Reinhold Hanisch, and Rudolf Hausler in his earliest days. But still, that hardly casts doubt on rumored incestuous relationships that might have caused family members distress, since he did marry multiple times (and long before ever requiring a token, figurehead wife after his rise to power).
Apr 27, 2018 08:24 PM
(This post was last modified: Apr 27, 2018 08:29 PM by C C.)
