Secular spirituality

[Leigha]

That said, the term spirituality has expanded to mean different things to different people.

Isn't that one of the primary objections atheists have with god? That the term "god" means different things to different people.
If so, it's inconsistent for an atheist to accept that from their own conception of spirituality while criticizing it about the concept of god.

Well, hmm.

Unfortunately, because there are so many different religions (and even different sects/denominations within specific religions) I can see where atheists derive the idea that the term ''god'' would mean different things to different people. Because it honestly does, apparently. 

For me, God is above me, supreme to me. The creator. Perhaps, I've derived my initial concept of God from when I followed Christianity, but in coming back to faith, the idea that God is above me - created me - makes sense to me. But, the term ''god'' for say a pantheist would be different. Same with Deism, same for a Muslim, and so on.

I think many non-believers would suggest that my idea of God, comes from my own imagination. They can feel that way, it doesn't sway what I've come to believe. I think the beauty of any spiritual mindset, is when you find your beliefs and ideas to be somewhat...unshakable.

I've noticed that some on here refer to you as a theist. Not to get sidetracked, but are you a theist? (One can be a believer, and not necessarily a theist)

[Syne]

That said, the term spirituality has expanded to mean different things to different people.

Isn't that one of the primary objections atheists have with god? That the term "god" means different things to different people.
If so, it's inconsistent for an atheist to accept that from their own conception of spirituality while criticizing it about the concept of god.

Well, hmm.

Unfortunately, because there are so many different religions (and even different sects/denominations within specific religions) I can see where atheists derive the idea that the term ''god'' would mean different things to different people. Because it honestly does, apparently. 

For me, God is above me, supreme to me. The creator. Perhaps, I've derived my initial concept of God from when I followed Christianity, but in coming back to faith, the idea that God is above me - created me - makes sense to me. But, the term ''god'' for say a pantheist would be different. Same with Deism, same for a Muslim, and so on.

I think many non-believers would suggest that my idea of God, comes from my own imagination. They can feel that way, it doesn't sway what I've come to believe. I think the beauty of any spiritual mindset, is when you find your beliefs and ideas to be somewhat...unshakable.

I've noticed that some on here refer to you as a theist. Not to get sidetracked, but are you a theist? (One can be a believer, and not necessarily a theist)

Oh, I'm not criticizing anyone's conception of god, because that's part of what makes god a personal god that you interact with. It's just hypocritical for atheists to criticize that while apparently espousing a similarly varying concept of their own spirituality. Or would they equally admit that their spirituality is as wholly imaginary as they claim a god is? I don't know. At least that would be consistent.


I am a theist (which is inclusive of any belief in a supreme being or deities). Deism, pantheism, etc. are just different flavors of theism, so any belief in a supreme being or creator is theistic. Theism need not be religious, and I'm not. I am a Christian apologist, because I understand and see enough merit to defend that religion, but I don't call myself a Christian. If I had to label myself, it would be syncretic panentheist....the fusion of several religious/philosophical ideas under the notion that the divine permeates everything (like pantheism) plus extends beyond space and time.

[Leigha]

That said, the term spirituality has expanded to mean different things to different people.

Isn't that one of the primary objections atheists have with god? That the term "god" means different things to different people.
If so, it's inconsistent for an atheist to accept that from their own conception of spirituality while criticizing it about the concept of god.

Well, hmm.

Unfortunately, because there are so many different religions (and even different sects/denominations within specific religions) I can see where atheists derive the idea that the term ''god'' would mean different things to different people. Because it honestly does, apparently. 

For me, God is above me, supreme to me. The creator. Perhaps, I've derived my initial concept of God from when I followed Christianity, but in coming back to faith, the idea that God is above me - created me - makes sense to me. But, the term ''god'' for say a pantheist would be different. Same with Deism, same for a Muslim, and so on.

I think many non-believers would suggest that my idea of God, comes from my own imagination. They can feel that way, it doesn't sway what I've come to believe. I think the beauty of any spiritual mindset, is when you find your beliefs and ideas to be somewhat...unshakable.

I've noticed that some on here refer to you as a theist. Not to get sidetracked, but are you a theist? (One can be a believer, and not necessarily a theist)

Oh, I'm not criticizing anyone's conception of god, because that's part of what makes god a personal god that you interact with. It's just hypocritical for atheists to criticize that while apparently espousing a similarly varying concept of their own spirituality. Or would they equally admit that their spirituality is as wholly imaginary as they claim a god is? I don't know. At least that would be consistent.

Yea, I see what you're saying. There comes a point though, when you have to untangle yourself from the back and forth arguments, you know? Your own spirituality doesn't hinge on whether others agree with it or not. I know that you enjoy (?) lol debating, but sometimes...it's best to live and let live. (my opinion)

I am a theist (which is inclusive of any belief in a supreme being or deities). Deism, pantheism, etc. are just different flavors of theism, so any belief in a supreme being or creator is theistic. Theism need not be religious, and I'm not. I am a Christian apologist, because I understand and see enough merit to defend that religion, but I don't call myself a Christian. If I had to label myself, it would be syncretic panentheist....the fusion of several religious/philosophical ideas under the notion that the divine permeates everything (like pantheism) plus extends beyond space and time.

I'm not sure that I've ever read such a thorough description of your spiritual beliefs. Interesting. Do you find the merging of different religious ideas to ever conflict with one another? I happen to find value in different religions/philosophical ideas as well, despite the fact that all of the religions if to be followed fully and completely, contradict one another. 

[Syne]

Yea, I see what you're saying. There comes a point though, when you have to untangle yourself from the back and forth arguments, you know? Your own spirituality doesn't hinge on whether others agree with it or not. I know that you enjoy (?) lol debating, but sometimes...it's best to live and let live. (my opinion)

My spirituality doesn't depend on anyone else's agreement, otherwise I'd be religious, where I could find such broad agreement. And not being religious, I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything either. The back and forth doesn't affect my own spiritual peace. Just like atheists are keen on disabusing people of what they see as delusion, so it is with me and things like misguided secular notions of spirituality or biased mischaracterizations of science. Truth is an essential aspect of spirituality.

I am a theist (which is inclusive of any belief in a supreme being or deities). Deism, pantheism, etc. are just different flavors of theism, so any belief in a supreme being or creator is theistic. Theism need not be religious, and I'm not. I am a Christian apologist, because I understand and see enough merit to defend that religion, but I don't call myself a Christian. If I had to label myself, it would be syncretic panentheist....the fusion of several religious/philosophical ideas under the notion that the divine permeates everything (like pantheism) plus extends beyond space and time.

I'm not sure that I've ever read such a thorough description of your spiritual beliefs. Interesting. Do you find the merging of different religious ideas to ever conflict with one another? I happen to find value in different religions/philosophical ideas as well, despite the fact that all of the religions if to be followed fully and completely, contradict one another. 

I've mentioned it before, here or elsewhere.

Of two truly conflicting things, only one can be true. But there are often things that only seem to be in conflict. Many points of seeming contradiction are only so in the naive or traditional interpretations. That said, some religions and philosophies are clearly better than others...even if just by the actions of those who espouse them.

[Leigha]

Yea, I see what you're saying. There comes a point though, when you have to untangle yourself from the back and forth arguments, you know? Your own spirituality doesn't hinge on whether others agree with it or not. I know that you enjoy (?) lol debating, but sometimes...it's best to live and let live. (my opinion)

My spirituality doesn't depend on anyone else's agreement, otherwise I'd be religious, where I could find such broad agreement. And not being religious, I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything either. The back and forth doesn't affect my own spiritual peace. Just like atheists are keen on disabusing people of what they see as delusion, so it is with me and things like misguided secular notions of spirituality or biased mischaracterizations of science. Truth is an essential aspect of spirituality.

I am a theist (which is inclusive of any belief in a supreme being or deities). Deism, pantheism, etc. are just different flavors of theism, so any belief in a supreme being or creator is theistic. Theism need not be religious, and I'm not. I am a Christian apologist, because I understand and see enough merit to defend that religion, but I don't call myself a Christian. If I had to label myself, it would be syncretic panentheist....the fusion of several religious/philosophical ideas under the notion that the divine permeates everything (like pantheism) plus extends beyond space and time.

I'm not sure that I've ever read such a thorough description of your spiritual beliefs. Interesting. Do you find the merging of different religious ideas to ever conflict with one another? I happen to find value in different religions/philosophical ideas as well, despite the fact that all of the religions if to be followed fully and completely, contradict one another. 

I've mentioned it before, here or elsewhere.

Of two truly conflicting things, only one can be true. But there are often things that only seem to be in conflict. Many points of seeming contradiction are only so in the naive or traditional interpretations. That said, some religions and philosophies are clearly better than others...even if just by the actions of those who espouse them.

Agree ^

I think when we ''cherry pick'' the best of most religions or philosophical beliefs, the contradictions won't rise to the top, as I've noticed that there exist commonalities between most belief systems that serve to be positive. But, I've had scrutiny from friends who follow specific faith beliefs, who ''judge'' me over my refusal to define myself as ''x.'' 

Do you incorporate any ''rituals'' or ''traditions'' of various religions as a form of celebration, for example, say around holiday time?

[Syne]

I think when we ''cherry pick'' the best of most religions or philosophical beliefs, the contradictions won't rise to the top, as I've noticed that there exist commonalities between most belief systems that serve to be positive. But, I've had scrutiny from friends who follow specific faith beliefs, who ''judge'' me over my refusal to define myself as ''x.'' 

Do you incorporate any ''rituals'' or ''traditions'' of various religions as a form of celebration, for example, say around holiday time?

I wouldn't call it "cherry picking". It's just like deciphering the news. You check many sources and where they agree is likely the truth. But many things are simpler than that. I mean, the Bible doesn't explicitly state that reincarnation doesn't occur, so believing in it is not contrary to Christianity. All references to a god or gods are attempts to reference the same thing.

I tell Christians, quite honestly, that if I thought I could be a good example, I'd call myself a Christian. But I don't want to be responsible for giving anyone a bad impression of the religion. There's already enough of that.

No, I don't engage in any especially religious observances, but I don't mind them either.

[Leigha]

Well, it's in the striving towards repentance, and ''cooperating with God's grace'', that is the essence of Christianity. No one is a ''good enough'' example, but it's what one does after messing up, that matters. I think that many denominations believe that ''salvation'' as is mentioned in the NT, is something to work towards, but if one accepts Jesus as the Savior, then a natural progression towards wanting to treat others kindly, let go of addictions, vices, etc...becomes a much more effortless path. This is likely why Jesus mentions that the path to heaven will be narrow, because while it's ''easy'' to state that one accepts Jesus, following him and his teachings are another thing, entirely. Just how I've come to view Christianity.

I think that many people struggle with the idea of ''sin'' and ''not being good enough,'' and the ''need for a Savior,'' because it paints a picture of a god who is unkind - and unjust. And then you see Christians behaving horrible to others, and it causes a lot of confusion.

I've researched Sufism and found that to be intriguing, and Messianic Judaism - but that is a very strict set of rules, it seems.

[Syne]

Well, it's in the striving towards repentance, and ''cooperating with God's grace'', that is the essence of Christianity. No one is a ''good enough'' example, but it's what one does after messing up, that matters. I think that many denominations believe that ''salvation'' as is mentioned in the NT, is something to work towards, but if one accepts Jesus as the Savior, then a natural progression towards wanting to treat others kindly, let go of addictions, vices, etc...becomes a much more effortless path. This is likely why Jesus mentions that the path to heaven will be narrow, because while it's ''easy'' to state that one accepts Jesus, following him and his teachings are another thing, entirely. Just how I've come to view Christianity.

I think that many people struggle with the idea of ''sin'' and ''not being good enough,'' and the ''need for a Savior,'' because it paints a picture of a god who is unkind - and unjust. And then you see Christians behaving horrible to others, and it causes a lot of confusion.

I've researched Sufism and found that to be intriguing, and Messianic Judaism - but that is a very strict set of rules, it seems.

That's a typical Christian take on Christianity. But I take the commandment against taking god's name in vain more seriously. It isn't about something as silly as saying "god damn it". It's about professing to be something, like a women "taking the name of" her husband, and not living up to it, like said woman cheating, i.e. taking her husband's name in vain (without meaning). Christians who fail to live at least somewhat Christ-like (like the Westboro people) can be the cause of turning some people away from Christianity and god. That's pretty damning.

But yes, Christianity is up front about no one being perfect. But when atheists will use that to turn others away from god, the level of failures and mistakes have higher stakes.

Anything Islamic is fundamentally flawed, because their scripture explicitly codifies some evils as acceptable. I saw an interview with an imam who said Islam cannot be reformed, like Christianity was, because too much that needs reforming is in their scripture. I have a relative who is Messianic Jew. I guess some people feel they need that sort of structure.

[Leigha]

I hear you - but, remember the thief on the cross. He led a life not following Jesus’ ministry but he turns to Jesus and expresses his belief, and asks for forgiveness, and we are led to believe that the thief’s contrite heart, offers him the opportunity to be “saved.” A good act of contrition goes a long way, in Christianity.

From what I’ve learned, Christianity is about relationship. When a person decides to have a relationship with Jesus, things change and no two people’s relationship will be the same. I believe that I have a relationship now with God as when I was a practicing Catholic (no longer follow that), it seemed more about do’s and dont’s ...essentially legalism. God was intimidating and distant to me, and I just walked away from the idea of a higher power, for a few years.

That is what religion becomes for many people and a way for them to feel superior to others, sadly - legalism and and an off putting set of rules.

---

Anyway, we could go on and on. Sorry MR for taking this a bit off topic.

Back to the topic - do you (MR) follow any Pagan rituals like for the change of seasons or holidays? I’m a little obsessed with rituals lol I find different customs to be interesting.

[Syne]

I hear you - but, remember the thief on the cross. He led a life not following Jesus’ ministry but he turns to Jesus and expresses his belief, and asks for forgiveness, and we are led to believe that the thief’s contrite heart, offers him the opportunity to be “saved.” A good act of contrition goes a long way, in Christianity.

Claiming to be a Christian and being "saved" are two different things. You can be either without the other.