Chemical imbalance lie

#21
(Dec 31, 2017 06:17 PM)C C Wrote:
RainbowUnicorn Wrote:there is some interesting data suggesting shorter more highly managed use with CBT that can deliver some long term excellent outcomes without the long term issues around behaviours and side effects that are potentially created or symptomatic of people suffering mental illness. it is a highly complex field and almost every patient is unique to some point.

Not surprising that psychotherapists champion alternatives to their rivals' substance remedies. But we should clarify in this thread that questioning the so-called "chemical imbalance theory" as having ascended to popularity through proper procedures doesn't equate to dismissing any biological / physiological causes and a denial that drugs can be effective (regardless of the selected explanation) anymore than criticizing jihadist terrorism is a censure of Islam.

(Dec 31, 2017 02:22 PM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: i worry that the anti science brigade and the pray the gay way cults may seek to produce media that is attempting to directly interfear with patients and their doctors.


I doubt that there's any neat correspondence to political borders in this area, and in a sense that goes beyond just the in-common conspiracy afflictions they share.

The money-makers on the conservative and religious side are as much receptive to supporting the interests and pocketing money from the pharmaceutical industry as their culturally isolated counterparts or fringe-weirdos are in spurning the mainstream system for rugged individualist self-treatment, herbal remedies, "leave it in the hands of God" and snake-handling.

On the other side there's a similar dichotomy between affluent or corporation-backed progressives and the contrasting rogue slash outland descendants of the New Left and hippie activity of the '60s (their anti-vax community, alternative medicine, "get in tune with the nature goddess", disgust for commercial empires and Big Pharma).

Which is to say, the go-getter financial factions of both right and left will continue to ensure that medicine producers and their amply compensated practitioners / dispensers are legislatively defended and bolstered with widespread positive propaganda to counteract the influence of cult / survivalist outhouse cultures and eccentric socialist Wandervogel tribes.

With respect to doctors, they're recruited into the Good Ol' Boy Network like any other category of practicing professionals. And rival psychotherapists keep tabs on what biomedical mental healthcare experts are up to in that department. I chose Daniel Carlat as a neutral sphincter because he's gone the rounds of being officially bought-out by pharmaceutical psychiatry while still defending the effectiveness of the drugs even after coming out of that closet (albeit in perplexed or mysterion mode as to why they work).

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[Image: wandervogel.jpg]


Quote:Wandervogel group on a hike in the 1950s in Germany.





[Image: Mysterion-kenny-mccormick-south-park-226...38-341.png]


better it were Cartman sitting in there for the caption
"Respect my OrthoraTAe, I AM RICH PATIANT"  Neo-Liberal Alt-Right Profesional-Entitlest ...

What i have noticed is a trend among regular church going people to become suspicious about Psychiatric medications and the idea of being framed as qwasi-dependant on a non god entity.
this panders directly to the brain washing mantra of nothing before god.
i think it is an irresponsible and malicious process to foster & propogate in social communaties.
like promoting fast careless driving to teenage boys while advertising alcahol to them.


Additionally, considering the massive size of the economic market, there is no end of legal hack societal cannabals waiting to level their bank accounts at the income of big pharma sales
(american psychopathic litigious societal canaballistic culture).

what i think is interesting is the actual event nature of periodical mental illness.


as an example... (e.g)(i am creating one using information i have gained from talking to people)


i felt a little down so i  (wondered if i was)called myself clinically depressed. i went to my doctor & said i was not coping with modern living.
my doctor put me on Anti Depresants
i wasnt too sure if they really helped.
i changed my diet started some possative behaviour rienforcement and thinking,... started exercising and got a new hobby

i stopped taking them some months later & i feel completely better.
I dont think they really helped at all so i dont really beleive in them.


attempting to strike a common cord of logical scientific pharmacological common ground in people is probably quite a folly to then "engage with someone espousing" in dogma leaning ideological narccissistic religous mind control.
point being 2 things
1 most never bother to study the actual pharmacology
2 someone dealing with feelings who has a heavy dogma of religion governing their logical mind is not going to produce an explorative discussion for them or yourself.
more soo if they are the one feeling emotionally distressed challenging their religion while they are trialing SRII's isprobably not a good idea.
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#22
(Dec 31, 2017 08:15 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: https://psychcentral.com/news/2015/05/28...85050.html
Where's a link to the actual study?
Quote:
Quote:Not so. It's an argument in favor of trauma being a more primary cause of behavioral issues than physiology. Considering the evidence for neuroplasticity, environment and experience would seem to largely trump physiology.

Trauma and experience ultimately translate into physiological malfunctions. PTSD victims and abuse victims all have the trauma of their past etched upon their brain in some way, leading to their current mental problems. Medication can treat those physiological wounds and help to heal them over time.

https://www.popsci.com/fda-says-mdma-is-...d-patients

http://c-hit.org/2012/05/31/magic_antide..._for_ptsd/

Yes, neuroplasticity is what translates experience to structural/functional changes in the brain. They are not "wounds" like a scraped knee, that antibiotics can heal. The same behavioral neuroplasticity that made the changes can undo them. Trying to change brain function without a change in underlying psychology is pointless...unless of course we want to condemn people to a life on medication targeting symptoms instead of causes.
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#23
Quote:Yes, neuroplasticity is what translates experience to structural/functional changes in the brain. They are not "wounds" like a scraped knee, that antibiotics can heal. The same behavioral neuroplasticity that made the changes can undo them. Trying to change brain function without a change in underlying psychology is pointless...unless of course we want to condemn people to a life on medication targeting symptoms instead of causes.

That's why medications are shown to actually enhance neuroplastic healing of the brain:

http://www.latimes.com/science/scienceno...story.html

https://www.popsci.com/fda-says-mdma-is-...d-patients

http://c-hit.org/2012/05/31/magic_antide..._for_ptsd/
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#24
The way I see depression is that it isn't so much about 'trauma', it's about reaction to triggering events which may or may not be traumatic. The more pathological kind of depressive episodes often come about for no discernible reason or in response to minor innocuous events.

(Dec 31, 2017 07:17 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: The real "lie" here at the heart of the anti-medication movement is that being depressed or bipolar or OCD or traumatized or ADHD or schizoid or an addict is all your fault. That you should just pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and make yourself better with positivity and good diet and exercise.

When I'm down and depressed occasionally, that often works. Walking usually improves my mood (probably the endorphins). Directing my mind to something new and interesting helps. But my depression has never been of the pathological variety, as far as I'm aware. By all accounts these typical ways to break out of a dark mood don't work for clinical depression.

My sense is that the underlying fault with Major Depressive Disorder (as in Bipolar Disorder) is in some emotional homeostatic mechanism, in some inner process that maintains mood stability. And I hypothesize that the basis for that is some neurophysiological defect, innate or acquired, that's probably biochemical (since biology is ultimately chemistry down there at the molecular biology level).

I don't think that it's realistic to wrap everyone in bubble wrap so that they don't risk suffering any trauma. Especially if major depressive episodes can be triggered unexpectedly by innocuous events.

The ideal would be to cure the underlying fault in emotional stability regulation.

But if we don't know how to do that, perhaps the best we can do is to treat the symptoms by trying to blunt the sharp emotional extremes.
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#25
(Dec 31, 2017 09:51 PM)Syne Wrote:
(Dec 31, 2017 08:15 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: https://psychcentral.com/news/2015/05/28...85050.html
Where's a link to the actual study?
Quote:
Quote:Not so. It's an argument in favor of trauma being a more primary cause of behavioral issues than physiology. Considering the evidence for neuroplasticity, environment and experience would seem to largely trump physiology.

Trauma and experience ultimately translate into physiological malfunctions. PTSD victims and abuse victims all have the trauma of their past etched upon their brain in some way, leading to their current mental problems. Medication can treat those physiological wounds and help to heal them over time.

https://www.popsci.com/fda-says-mdma-is-...d-patients

http://c-hit.org/2012/05/31/magic_antide..._for_ptsd/

Yes, neuroplasticity is what translates experience to structural/functional changes in the brain. They are not "wounds" like a scraped knee, that antibiotics can heal. The same behavioral neuroplasticity that made the changes can undo them. Trying to change brain function without a change in underlying psychology is pointless...unless of course we want to condemn people to a life on medication targeting symptoms instead of causes.

obviousely neuroplasticity of an engine that is unable to be seen in a basic functional moving process and not knowing how it actually operates leaves the Doctor to be treating an observable symptomatic process.
so the language is important none the less devisive to apply then remove intrinsic words like efficacy & causative functional asymptomatic pharmacalogical change to resting/unmedicated/healthy brain chemistry.


Quote:unless of course we want to condemn people to a life on medication targeting symptoms instead of causes.

life long dependant on giving the church money ?
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#26
(Dec 31, 2017 10:23 PM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:Yes, neuroplasticity is what translates experience to structural/functional changes in the brain. They are not "wounds" like a scraped knee, that antibiotics can heal. The same behavioral neuroplasticity that made the changes can undo them. Trying to change brain function without a change in underlying psychology is pointless...unless of course we want to condemn people to a life on medication targeting symptoms instead of causes.

That's why medications are shown to actually enhance neuroplastic healing of the brain:

http://www.latimes.com/science/scienceno...story.html

"functional connectivity" is not brain structure/architecture...nor evidence of neuroplasticity. Rolleyes

Quote:https://www.popsci.com/fda-says-mdma-is-...d-patients

http://c-hit.org/2012/05/31/magic_antide..._for_ptsd/

And two incomplete links. Rolleyes




(Dec 31, 2017 11:51 PM)Yazata Wrote: The way I see depression is that it isn't so much about 'trauma', it's about reaction to triggering events with may or may not be traumatic. The more pathological kind of depressive episodes often come about for no discernible reason or in response to minor innocuous events.

Seemingly innocuous events can only trigger major mental disorders due to their cuing of major trauma. Like in PTSD, the triggering event may be innocuous, but it relies on a major trauma for its power to trigger in the first place. It's just shortsighted to assume the immediately obvious trigger is the ultimate cause.

Quote:
(Dec 31, 2017 07:17 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: The real "lie" here at the heart of the anti-medication movement is that being depressed or bipolar or OCD or traumatized or ADHD or schizoid or an addict is all your fault. That you should just pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and make yourself better with positivity and good diet and exercise.

When I'm down and depressed occasionally, that often works. Walking usually improves my mood (probably the endorphins). Directing my mind to something new and interesting helps. But my depression has never been of the pathological variety, as far as I'm aware. By all accounts these typical ways to break out of a dark mood don't work for clinical depression.

MR has a persecution complex. It's not about pulling yourself up, it's about facing and processing your trauma. Some people just let their fear get the better of them, but therapy can help that.

Quote:I don't think that it's realistic to wrap everyone in bubble wrap so that they don't risk suffering any trauma. Especially if major depressive episodes can be triggered unexpectedly by innocuous events.

Trigger and cause are two different things. Conflating them only makes the depressed feel even more at the whim of some wholly uncontrollable and capricious physiology.

Quote:But if we don't know how to do that, perhaps the best we can do is to treat the symptoms by trying to blunt the sharp emotional extremes.

Blunting the mind only postpones any coping processing of trauma.
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#27
Quote:"functional connectivity" is not brain structure/architecture...nor evidence of neuroplasticity

No evidence of antidepressant-induced neuroplasticity you say?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3834236/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3025168/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12180273

https://www.nature.com/articles/1301574

https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...ing-brain/

http://www.academicjournals.org/journal/...9DDB942892

http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC5416672/
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#28
(Jan 1, 2018 03:02 AM)Syne Wrote:
Magical Realist Wrote:Quote:But if we don't know how to do that, perhaps the best we can do is to treat the symptoms by trying to blunt the sharp emotional extremes.

Blunting the mind only postpones any coping processing of trauma.

Quote:Blunting the mind only postpones any coping processing of trauma.

i am not emphatically disagreing, however your implying the suggestion that medication is a barrier to recovery.

do you not define a need for truama reduction through pharmacology ?
surely a functional bottom line is sought to normalise people in their job and home life ?

effectively putting the brakes on to bring the mind back to a point where they may gain control again...
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#29
(Jan 1, 2018 03:50 AM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:"functional connectivity" is not brain structure/architecture...nor evidence of neuroplasticity

No evidence of antidepressant-induced neuroplasticity you say?

Where did I say that? There is evidence of neuroplasticity effects of anti-depressants in rats and hamsters. And if you think depressed humans are akin to rats....
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#30
Quote:Where did I say that? There is evidence of neuroplasticity effects of anti-depressants in rats and hamsters. And if you think depressed humans are akin to rats....

Seven studies right there showing the neuroplastic effects of anti-depressants period. You've been officially debunked. Now slither back under your rock and quit spuing your agenda-driven junk science..Cuz nobody's buying it..
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