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Another "oh well"?

#1
Syne Offline
So no doubt everyone's heard of Harvey Weinstein and the host of actresses coming out with similar stories.

And while I wholeheartedly condemn actual sexual assault/harassment, there are some fairly glaring problems beyond the obvious.
1. Why are these actresses not naming their assailants...even now, as successful adults and in cases of child molestation (which apparently doesn't have a statute of limitations)? What good does it do when they leave predators in power? And how is it brave when you don't name the assailant?
2. For the adult actresses, wasn't their silence complicity in a transactional arrangement they benefited from?
3. Didn't that complicity actually lead to these men thinking they could get away with it...even with women who had no intend to trade sexual favors for career gain?
4. Or are all these really more regret, like false rape accusations after deciding to get drunk at frat parties?

Without the names of the assailants, are we all just supposed to say "oh well, that's Hollywood"?
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#2
RainbowUnicorn Offline
(Oct 17, 2017 10:40 PM)Syne Wrote: So no doubt everyone's heard of Harvey Weinstein and the host of actresses coming out with similar stories.

And while I wholeheartedly condemn actual sexual assault/harassment, there are some fairly glaring problems beyond the obvious.
1. Why are these actresses not naming their assailants...even now, as successful adults and in cases of child molestation (which apparently doesn't have a statute of limitations)? What good does it do when they leave predators in power? And how is it brave when you don't name the assailant?
2. For the adult actresses, wasn't their silence complicity in a transactional arrangement they benefited from?
3. Didn't that complicity actually lead to these men thinking they could get away with it...even with women who had no intend to trade sexual favors for career gain?
4. Or are all these really more regret, like false rape accusations after deciding to get drunk at frat parties?

Without the names of the assailants, are we all just supposed to say "oh well, that's Hollywood"?

Quote:And how is it brave when you don't name the assailant?

coward by ommision ?

Quote:2. For the adult actresses,
you may as well be preaching about flat earth using such terminology
quite insulting really.
 if you are not aware why it is insulting then you need to do a little[an awful lot to be more precise] cross reading.


Quote:3. Didn't that complicity actually lead to these men thinking they could get away with it
soo.. you are infact blaming the victim for not controlling the thoughts of the attacker.
thats quite out there.(tin-foil-hat level stuff really)

Quote:4. Or are all these really more regret, like false
or... is everything not really true and your making it all up just like the attacker has already said, and continue to say ?

umm... drawing a bit of a blank here as to what might be cognating other than a complete lack of knowledge of the entire issue and society et-large.

The Theme of your post smacks quite loudly of privilage, rendering all possible situations to be all the same and having no other influencing factors.
thats pretty much in line with victim blaming really.

i would be surprised if any women bother replying considering it appears as if it were trying to explain quantum physics to a 5 year old child in a foriegn language.

Quote:Without the names of the assailants, are we all just supposed to say "oh well, that's Hollywood"?

appeal to authority ?
wanted to add that your last sentence suggests others should not bother helping if the victim does not proceed in a manner that you have defined.
the reverse logic you use is almost incidious... almost.
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#3
Syne Offline
Really? O_o

So explain to me how it is brave to stand up against someone you won't name? So what, they know who they are? Like they didn't before? That's like protecting the identity of someone who robbed you...there's no point pressing charges against someone you refuse to identify.
Refusing to name the assailant is continuing to cover for them. Instead of keeping silent about the incident, you're just keeping silent about who did it.

Enlighten me about how inappropriate "adult actress" is. Or are you from the school of feminist thought that seeks to infantilize all women? Guess which one is actually sexist...you. Wait....are you assuming I meant porn star?!! Again, that says much more about you, creep.

So no woman should be judged for willingly using her body in a transaction for material gain? Yeah, that's called prostitution...only it's more socially acceptable when you do it to advance your career.

LOL! I never said any of these stories were made up. Why would a victim refuse to name their assailant unless they are still benefiting from the silence...and likely leaving many more women to fall prey to the same creep?

Moreover, why have so few men been named, when we all know this is rampant in Hollywood? Sounds like they're just using one scapegoat to leave the vast majority of abusers in power.



And without names, what are we expected to do about it? Just say "oh well"?
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#4
Leigha Offline
I'm a woman, and don't see the women who willingly had sex with Weinstein, as victims. This isn't anything new, even in corporate settings...many people sleep their way to the top, and while it's unethical and those people in high positions should be fired, there are still women willing to sleep with men to gain career advancements. That doesn't make them victims, it should make them feel ashamed that they didn't say no and reported the guy when it would have made a difference. If he raped women, that's a different story. I think Weinstein's actions were deplorable, but it's also deplorable that women put their careers over their own dignity, and had sex with the guy.
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#5
Syne Offline
(Oct 18, 2017 05:28 PM)Leigha Wrote: I'm a woman, and don't see the women who willingly had sex with Weinstein, as victims. This isn't anything new, even in corporate settings...many people sleep their way to the top, and while it's unethical and those people in high positions should be fired, there are still women willing to sleep with men to gain career advancements. That doesn't make them victims, it should make them feel ashamed that they didn't say no and reported the guy when it would have made a difference. If he raped women, that's a different story. I think Weinstein's actions were deplorable, but it's also deplorable that women put their careers over their own dignity, and had sex with the guy.

Absolutely! No matter the intent of some (?) of these women to use sex for advancement, the abusers are not any less guilty where no consent was given. Rape is rape. Unless it's a false accusation to cover transactional sex (which would be appropriately shameful). Either way, I'm sure the common practice of transactional sex did very likely lead to quite a few non-consenting incidents.
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#6
Leigha Offline
(Oct 18, 2017 05:41 PM)Syne Wrote:
(Oct 18, 2017 05:28 PM)Leigha Wrote: I'm a woman, and don't see the women who willingly had sex with Weinstein, as victims. This isn't anything new, even in corporate settings...many people sleep their way to the top, and while it's unethical and those people in high positions should be fired, there are still women willing to sleep with men to gain career advancements. That doesn't make them victims, it should make them feel ashamed that they didn't say no and reported the guy when it would have made a difference. If he raped women, that's a different story. I think Weinstein's actions were deplorable, but it's also deplorable that women put their careers over their own dignity, and had sex with the guy.

Absolutely! No matter the intent of some (?) of these women to use sex for advancement, the abusers are not any less guilty where no consent was given. Rape is rape. Unless it's a false accusation to cover transactional sex (which would be appropriately shameful). Either way, I'm sure the common practice of transactional sex did very likely lead to quite a few non-consenting incidents.

Yea, it could be possible. I definitely think the guy needs to go, and others like him. But, if we think that Weinstein is the only pig in this pen, we're all a bit too naive. lol 

Unfortunately, as long as women put their careers over their dignity and sleep with directors, producers, managers, corporate execs, etc...then, this will continue. Rape is entirely differently, and he should be prosecuted to the extent that the laws permit.
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#8
Syne Offline
(Oct 18, 2017 06:06 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: And then there's good ole fashion sexual harassment.

When I say abusers, I include that. It's all non-consensual.
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#9
Leigha Offline
It's totally sexual harassment, of the worst kind...but, if you willingly sleep with your boss in exchange for career favors, and tell no one...then, nothing will change. :/

If your boss forces himself upon you and you're not consenting, then it's rape.
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#10
C C Offline
(Oct 17, 2017 10:40 PM)Syne Wrote: [...] What good does it do when they leave predators in power? And how is it brave when you don't name the assailant? [...] Without the names of the assailants, are we all just supposed to say "oh well, that's Hollywood"?


They're certainly not "heroes of victimhood" if bought-off with a condition of silence. But not fully "villains of complicity" either.

A "damned if you do and damned if you don't" limbo where they choose the option where they still have a career. Since there's the intimidating impression (whether real or quasi-mythical) that going alone against either a powerful entertainment mogul or a powerful celebrity is going to result in the systematic destruction of one's reputation and further job opportunities in that industry. While still potentially not accomplishing much if anything in the aftermath that improves the situation for future "victims" of _X_ individual. [Actually, even Michael Jackson got some temporary chinks in his armor from the accusations, arrest, private settlements and overt litigation battles -- but in the long run the world still turns a blind eye to the deceased icon's molestations no matter what new material is unearthed. Being in the spotlight of pedophilia might have caused him to shy away from more of it -- or he just got technically better at concealing it.]

Even if one is victorious in court against the team of expensive lawyers on the other side and the latter's "Anthony Pellicano" type private eyes digging up dirt to use against the accuser, the victorious latter may still be stigmatized across the industry as a "trouble-maker" few might want to hire (especially if those bosses are dipping their wick into the same kind of activity). Being in a group of accusers (even when long after the fact) seems to generate a better sense of security or outcome for them. As well as the undeserved "heroes of victimhood" status. (At least for those latecomers who in the past were caught in that dilemma where they chose career over either fading obscurity or the premature abortion of a career just starting. Some predicting either correctly or incorrectly that their sacrifice as a lone justice warrior still likely wouldn't stop the Big Name from continuing to get away with that stuff.)

But all that said, making generalizations about people in _X_ situations is an iffy business. Specific cases of _X_ can reveal contingent novelties and elements in the background / reasons for their decisions that I might never have considered or thought of.

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